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Tesla Being Shady As Hell: Removing Autopilot Feature Without Notice After Customer Buys Used Model S

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#22 ·
Every day I find myself happy to have an analog car :laugh:
 
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#23 ·
atomicalex said:
Oh, this is gonna have unintended consequences.....

1. Dealers and consumers rely on the Monroney. If it's wrong, or can be negated on the fly without anyone knowing (physical parts missing, etc), I can see the dealer base really going to war.

2. GM can make some serious hay out of this.

3. This will effectively kill resale of Teslas. Which may be part of Musk's game, but in the end, it's a bad idea. Residuals will collapse.

I am sure there are other things that can go wrong. Screwing with a Monroney is not a good idea, and Tesla f'ed this up good.
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maybe this was another piece of elons long game on not having dealers?

no one to complain when you randomly reconfigure/downgrade cars OtA
 
#26 ·
absoluteczech said:
OTA updates FTW :laugh: Pretty sure we'll see and hear more stories like this in future and from other manufacturers if they all follow suit
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Yeah this is scary for sure. What's to keep them from detuning the engine to comply with more strict emissions laws a la Dieselgate. Or they decide that their warranty costs are too high so they nerf something for that? GM already had to recall a recall on their brake system "fix". I don't think the manufacturer should be able to change anything OTA without a detailed explanation of the changes and the customers acceptance of said changes with the option to opt out if there is any kind of negative effect to the performance of the systems.
 
#28 ·
JitteryJoe said:
Yeah this is scary for sure. What's to keep them from detuning the engine to comply with more strict emissions laws a la Dieselgate. Or they decide that their warranty costs are too high so they nerf something for that? GM already had to recall a recall on their brake system "fix". I don't think the manufacturer should be able to change anything OTA without a detailed explanation of the changes and the customers acceptance of said changes with the option to opt out if there is any kind of negative effect to the performance of the systems.
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Tesla has already been accused of decreasing range with OTA updates to preserve battery. I can totally see it happening.

Hang on to those analog cars :p
 
#29 ·
spockcat said:
The way I read it is that the car was originally sold with the EA and FSD features. Then the car was lemoned. Tesla seems to have then sold the car at auction to a dealer on Nov. 15 but left the original Monroney sticker in the car. So the auction buyer (the dealer) could be under the impression that they were getting the features as shown on the sticker.

On Nov. 18 during a remote audit Tesla pulled the features from the car. Note that Tesla didn't own the car on Nov. 18. Had they pulled the features on Nov.14 and removed the Monroney sticker from the car, then I would see no issue. But that's not what happened. Finally, the dealer sold the car to a retail buyer, who likely thought they were getting EA and FSD due to the Monroney sticker in the car.

So I would say Tesla is at fault for basically being sloppy with their sales and owes the features to the car's owner. They should only be able to remove features when they are in ownership of the car, not once the car is in someone else's ownership. Otherwise it would be like sending a mechanic over to your house and swapping your alloy wheels for steel wheels.
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This.

Sold Over Sticker said:
Dealer that bought the car can arbitrate with the auction over the car being misrepresented. Dealer will win. Customer will give the car back, and the auction will go after Tesla.

Unless Tesla realizes that this is really stupid and just reactivates it.
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Also This.
 
#31 ·
JitteryJoe said:
Yeah this is scary for sure. What's to keep them from detuning the engine to comply with more strict emissions laws a la Dieselgate. Or they decide that their warranty costs are too high so they nerf something for that? GM already had to recall a recall on their brake system "fix". I don't think the manufacturer should be able to change anything OTA without a detailed explanation of the changes and the customers acceptance of said changes with the option to opt out if there is any kind of negative effect to the performance of the systems.
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The most scary part of it to me is that this was on purpose, this time, but what about next time? It involves computers and data networks... and we all know viruses exist, trojan horses, man in the middle attacks, DDOS etc etc.. Its not so much the part where this was clearly a wrong action on Tesla part, but moreso that a cars functionality can be changed so drastically by OTA update. If this happened as an accident or oops while the car was in operation.. Of course we know you're supposed to remain attentive while using autonomous modes but folks driving Tesla cars are often not. Now Tesla is coming with semi trucks.. so a worst case scenario result could be disastrous.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
Fined said:
The most scary part of it to me is that this was on purpose, this time, but what about next time? It involves computers and data networks... and we all know viruses exist, trojan horses, man in the middle attacks, DDOS etc etc.. Its not so much the part where this was clearly a wrong action on Tesla part, but moreso that a cars functionality can be changed so drastically by OTA update. If this happened as an accident or oops while the car was in operation.. Of course we know you're supposed to remain attentive while using autonomous modes but folks driving Tesla cars are often not. Now Tesla is coming with semi trucks.. so a worst case scenario result could be disastrous.
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What's even more wild is that the owner tried to play "dumb" and ask what would happen if he wanted to buy used Tesla, but have a featured removed:

As an experiment, Alec reached out to a Tesla Used Vehicle Sales Advisor to try and see if he could ask for Autopilot and FSD to be removed from a used vehicle.

Alec suggested he wanted a particular car, but wanted to save money by having FSD deleted. The Sales Advisor told him that

“...if it’s added and it’s a used car they just simply will not remove it.”
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That goes directly against Alec’s experience, where Tesla did remove FSD from a used car.
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#34 ·
OOOO-A3 said:
No. The feature stays with the car forever once paid for. They are saying that the particular car did NOT have it paid for (e.g. by the original owner), that the feature was present in error, and therefore they were correcting the error.

A better comparison example would be if you bought a car that was capable of satellite radio but did not pay for a subscription, and the dealer had activated it with a 'demo' code so you were able to use satellite radio without having paid for it yourself. Then, SiriusXM finds out and goes "hey, even though you've been listening to the sportsball channel for years, it was never actually paid for and you aren't entitled to continue having it for free, so we're deactivating it."

In this case, if the dealer that sold the used Tesla did so in good faith, and the buyer bought it in good faith, then while Tesla may be technically in the right to remove the feature it would really be best for them to not do so and to leave it alone for goodwill - they should have caught the mistake earlier when the original owner still owned it.
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Your example about Sirius is quite apt for the situation. The problem is your summation perfectly describes money laundering. If the car was erroneously or nefariously equipped with that feature by owner #1, that fact isn't scrubbed because owner #2 believed it was clean and then sold it to Owner #3, who purchased it thinking it was clean.
 
#36 ·
Diamond Dave said:
Your example about Sirius is quite apt for the situation. The problem is your summation perfectly describes money laundering. If the car was erroneously or nefariously equipped with that feature by owner #1, that fact isn't scrubbed because owner #2 believed it was clean and then sold it to Owner #3, who purchased it thinking it was clean.
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The difference in this case is that the Monroney sticker that officially lists what equipment the car originally came with, shows it as being present and part of the price tag for that car when it was originally built.

If it was erroneously included with the vehicle and included on the Monroney sticker but the original owner hadn't paid for it, then the error is on Tesla.
 
#37 ·
Tesla drivers, amirite?
 
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#38 ·
#40 ·
Stupid of Tesla to not just cover it. Software is a high margin business and it would cost them nothing.

Reminds me of a story. Back in 2004 I had a new Volvo S60 2.5T (AKA the light turbo, previously 2.4T). There was another model a step up, the Volvo S50 T5. Well what did 19 year old 2000JettaGLXVR6 do? He rebadged the car, removing the "2." from the badge, and repositioning the "T" before the "5" to make "T5" -- for poser status. They are both 2.5 liters.

I ended up trading the car in on a new 2004 Acura TL 6MT and didn't think anything of it at the time, the dealer has the VIN, the original monroney and the owners manual -- and had written the trade down as 2.5 liter on the worksheet (probably based on VIN).

About 2 weeks pass, I'm enjoying my new car and I get a call from the Acura dealer that there's a problem with my trade and they gave me too much money based on it being a "T5", not a "2.5T" - at this point they gave me an ultimatum, I bring a check in for $2700 or I can return the car and get my Volvo back. So I'm like okay, I'll be there in 15 minutes with your car and I'll take my Volvo back.

I arrived at the dealership, they were no longer interested in taking a used Acura back, I had called their bluff. I'm like here's $500 cash, take it or leave it. They took it.
 
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