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Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best!

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#21 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (phatvw)

Stock brakes will lock up the wheels (on a non-abs car) without problem. Take them to a track that is very hard on brakes and several laps later, they won't lock up the wheels...or slow them down much for that matter. Big brakes will not increase stopping distances...only tires can do that. Big brakes are for fade resistance and heat dissipation, so they will last the whole race and not go away half way through.
 
#22 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (machschnelGTI)

I'm just curious how many people posting about how big brakes work have ever installed them on their car or drove a car with them. I'm not talking about driving on the street or an autocross course but rather on a real road course like Road America or Summit Point. I have driven many street cars with different levels of upgrades ranging from pads/fliud/rotors/Hoosier tires on a mk3 VR6 Jetta to a 97 Audi w/chipped 1.8T with manual dual masters, 13"x1 1/4" 2 piece front rotors w/Alcon 4 pistons and 12"x1" rear rotors w/Alcon 4 pistons. I can say from experience that the difference between the two cars was night and day. The Audi would stop from 60m.p.h. in less than 85 ft. on street tires (225-40-18 Bridgestone S0-3 and Pagid Orange pads fr.Pagid Blue rr.), and it could do it as many times as you asked it to. I know that talk is cheap but to me it sounds like one person makes what sound like a good argument against something on this forum and its repeated over and over again by people that have no clue what it means. I'm not the end all be all expert but I have had the opportunity to test out many different set-ups first hand at a shop I worked at for a while. There is always a trade off with upgrades, wether its cams,turbos,.... Its up to the individual to find what is most important for their applications.
The same people that bang on about wieght are the ones that knock carbon hoods when they save 20-35lbs. off the nose of your car.
If you don't want to shell out the long dollars for big brakes don't, but stop bashing those that do by saying they really are just for looks.
There are a lot of factors in comparing brakes. You can have the best brakes in the world but if you don't bed the pads and rotors in properly or clean new rotors properly they may perform worse than a lesser quality brake set-up. Pad material, fluid, master cylinder size, tire compound, camber, tire pressure, wieght distribution, pedal ratios, the list goes on, they all effect overall performance.
I'm sure there are a lot of people here that have a very solid understanding of brakes and how they work and should take no offense to me posting my experiences. If what you know works for you thats cool, but I'm sure not everyone needs the same thing from their car.
I just like to see all possible side to any point, to ensure all information that is available is recieved. I think we need to start posting what we have on our cars,to weed out the "ya I heards and me toos". Sorry for the long post. Not trying to piss in anyones cheerios.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (Byron N.)

First of all, I am not against all bigger brakes, but as the title says, state that "bigger brakes are not ALWAYS the best"...
Byron,
What kind of pads were on the other car? You mentioned Pagid orange pads and blue on that big brake setup that's a HECK of a pad! Pads are the MOST important factor for fading and as long as you get good pads, you are able to stop consistently during track sessions.
I have been in cars with big brakes and I do track my own car. I can tell you that with a set of Brembo stock-size rotors, Pagid pads, and Motul DOT 5.1 fluid, my car does 4*25min sessions in a very brake demanding track very easily! When I was on stock pads, I only had decent braking for 2/3 of each session and then I had to brake much much earlier...
At the same time I have seen cars there with HUGE brakes, Brembo upgrades, etc... that fade (one got off the road mutliple times) while others dont, the culprit is pads/fluid!
All we are trying to say is that in MOST applications bigger brakes make you slower while not providing much braking improvement. A better upgrade would be pads+fluid.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (machschnelGTI)

Quote, originally posted by machschnelGTI »
Stock brakes will lock up the wheels (on a non-abs car) without problem. Take them to a track that is very hard on brakes and several laps later, they won't lock up the wheels...or slow them down much for that matter. Big brakes will not increase stopping distances...only tires can do that. Big brakes are for fade resistance and heat dissipation, so they will last the whole race and not go away half way through.

Put stock pads on bigger brakes and you fade just as fast!
 
#25 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (alexb75)

Quote, originally posted by alexb75 »
First of all, I am not against all bigger brakes, but as the title says, state that "bigger brakes are not ALWAYS the best"...
Byron,
What kind of pads were on the other car? You mentioned Pagid orange pads and blue on that big brake setup that's a HECK of a pad! Pads are the MOST important factor for fading and as long as you get good pads, you are able to stop consistently during track sessions.
I have been in cars with big brakes and I do track my own car. I can tell you that with a set of Brembo stock-size rotors, Pagid pads, and Motul DOT 5.1 fluid, my car does 4*25min sessions in a very brake demanding track very easily! When I was on stock pads, I only had decent braking for 2/3 of each session and then I had to brake much much earlier...
At the same time I have seen cars there with HUGE brakes, Brembo upgrades, etc... that fade (one got off the road mutliple times) while others dont, the culprit is pads/fluid!
All we are trying to say is that in MOST applications bigger brakes make you slower while not providing much braking improvement. A better upgrade would be pads+fluid.


The pads that I was running on the Jetta VR6 were Pagid Orange front and rear. I ran this car at Road America at an event and even with the rotor shields taken off the rear for better cooling I still warped the rotors and could not make full use of the power and top speed of the car for fear of running ot of brakes at the end of the long downhill. Now I will say that the pads were a big improvement over the stock but the limiting factor is still the standard size non-directional viened rotor and its limted ability to handle massive amounts of heat generated by the high friction pads. That car was less fun for me to drive than my 86 GTI even with all the extra power because I never felt confident in the brakes. I just like to know that no matter what speed I'm driving or how many times I hit the brakes that the car will be predictable.
I'm sure that most people with the older and lighter mk1 and mk2 would find pads and fluid to be a good performance upgrade but once you get into the mk3 you are talking about a car that is close to 3000lbs. Thats a whole different ball game then.
Brake upgrades should always be carefully thought out to achieve a desired level of performance, the problem is that most average people do not know enough to do that. I would like to see more technical information when talking about such an important area as brakes.
 
#26 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (Byron N.)

to put my two cents in coming from kart racing wher we used to run the smallest and i mean small rotor caliper and pad to save on rotational wieght. we even used the smallest chain allowed by rules to save on rotational weight as we did 99% of our racing on 15 mile to 1/4 tracks were we were flat out the whole time. Few road course races we did i a friend cart we had front brake setup onthe karts, large vented rotor on the axle and quite big caliper for karts on too. My point is you should only go as big (or small) as you going to need for whatever your planning to do with your car. anything else is just quite a waste of money in my eyes.
 
#27 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (alexb75)

Quote, originally posted by alexb75 »
They didn't try better tires, this just showed that bigger brakes don't help stopping distance.
Also, your point of fade resistance is not 100% true as the most important factor is pads+fluid and if u upgrade those on ur stock-size rotors, you will have no fade!

Yes, I forgot to mention fluid. Equally as important!
Just goes to show you how stupid these "tuners" are. You want better stopping power, get stickier tires.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (dcomiskey)

Quote, originally posted by dcomiskey »

Yes, I forgot to mention fluid. Equally as important!
Just goes to show you how stupid these "tuners" are. You want better stopping power, get stickier tires.

And how many people do you see who spend THOUSANDS of dollars on suspension, wheels and brakes and use all-season tires on their cars
Image
 
#29 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (alexb75)

People building their cars for looks???? noooo that NEVER happens.
Some do it for looks and some do it for function...Some do it for spirited canyon runs and some do it for the track. Some big brake kits are better than others. I highly doubt that the Mugen kit in question has as much engineering behind it as the STOPTECH kit. On our Mitsubishi, we went out on the track with a 13" brake setup on the front and Hawk blue pads...the brakes were gone in about 4 laps and when the car came in, the rotors were cracked in half...the only thing holding them together was the fact that the wheel was still bolted on. We changed to a 14 inch rotor that it almost twice as thick, and everything works fine. The brakes last a whole race now so in this case, bigger is better.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (machschnelGTI)

Quote, originally posted by machschnelGTI »
People building their cars for looks???? noooo that NEVER happens.
Some do it for looks and some do it for function...Some do it for spirited canyon runs and some do it for the track. Some big brake kits are better than others. I highly doubt that the Mugen kit in question has as much engineering behind it as the STOPTECH kit. On our Mitsubishi, we went out on the track with a 13" brake setup on the front and Hawk blue pads...the brakes were gone in about 4 laps and when the car came in, the rotors were cracked in half...the only thing holding them together was the fact that the wheel was still bolted on. We changed to a 14 inch rotor that it almost twice as thick, and everything works fine. The brakes last a whole race now so in this case, bigger is better.

The brakes were NOT made by Mugen, the exhaust was. Mugen is highly reputable company, they win races.
The reason they called Mugen was that they had no idea why after the upgrade their dyno showed less HP, so after talking to Mugen, they were asked what other mods they did, and after realizing the big brakes, they said that's the reason they lost power.
I actually think the brakes were Stoptech
Image
but I am not sure (dont remember)...
 
#31 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (alexb75)

Just because mugen is reputable (in the honda world) doesn't mean they arent capable of trying to cover their azz. If the brakes were stoptech they should have been lighter or of comparible weight to the stockers (having aluminum calipers and rotor hats). Furthermore the weight concentrated father out from the center is better as well. There could have been a thousand and one reasons why the modifications didn't make power and you go take the word of one dud who was called at mugen. Futhermore if the exhaust was suppose to make a claimed 8-10hp (dyno after dyno has shown a civic picks up about 5hp with a good exhaust regardless of manufacturers reputation. Is that claim mugens or yours) a brake upgrades weight isn't going to sap 10hp. even the weight of grossly heavy wheels only usually sap 4-5hp. No way a brake upgrade is responsible for no gain or less hp. There should have still been some gain. at least 2-3hp or more.
a) could have been the exhaust just didn't make any power. It wont be the 1rst or last time. From car to car and time to time it happens with the best companies.
b) could have been dyno variations (operator error, ambient temp variations, normal accepted 2-3hp dyno variations from run to run ect)
c) 101 car variables (car temp ,coolant temp tranny fluid temp, ECU adaptation ect)
and big brakes often dont make a car stop any faster, the purpose of bigger brakes are fade resistance/heat management. Multi piston calipers are also suppose to enhance pedal feel by distributing pressure over a larger surface area. How many repeated stops did they make and did they do rotor/caliper temps. If they didn't just a few 80-0 or 60-0 stopping distances dont tell anyting.
I know like everybody else bigger isn't always better. IF you arent racing and dont need bigger brakes and IF aftermarket brakes are going to be heavier and you dont need the fade resistance they may be unnessessary, that doesn't mean they arent better, it means they were used in the wrong application. Perhaps the mugen exhaust is an example of unneccesary change of bigger isn't better,
Proof my arse!
 
#32 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (02GTI-VR6-same1)

Quote, originally posted by 02GTI-VR6-same1 »
Furthermore the weight concentrated father out from the center is better as well.

I think you got that part backwards, but otherwise you have some valid points. Good discussion guys! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (02GTI-VR6-same1)

Quote, originally posted by 02GTI-VR6-same1 »
Just because mugen is reputable (in the honda world) doesn't mean they arent capable of trying to cover their azz. If the brakes were stoptech they should have been lighter or of comparible weight to the stockers (having aluminum calipers and rotor hats). Furthermore the weight concentrated father out from the center is better as well.

The larger brakes were actually LIGHTER!!! You just dont know what your talking about weight farther from center is better and I trust Mugen over you!
As I mentioned MANY TIMES, bigger brakes help in some situations but not in most and a pad/fluid does help you more in many different applications!
 
#34 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (alexb75)

I was watching the show last night and they were talking about a set of cams they were running (forget brand) that should have gained 20h.p. but only made 10h.p.. Thats 10h.p. less than expected not a lose of 10h.p., they contacted the cam manufacture and were told that they would have to run a race header as well to achieve the full 20h.p. They chose to keep the stock manifold and cat to keep the car street legal then had the car remapped to optimize that combination. Mugen made the body kit for the car Stoptech provided the brakes. The next someone wants to start a post like this make sure you are not suffering from A.D.D. Anyway its a good topic its just funny that almost everything in the first post is the wrong info.
Image
 
#36 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (alexb75)

Maybe we are just talking about 2 different episodes. Just sounds like the same one I saw. I'm just going to let it go. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (Byron N.)

Quote, originally posted by Byron N. »
Maybe we are just talking about 2 different episodes. Just sounds like the same one I saw. I'm just going to let it go. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Maybe... if I catch it again on replay, will tape it or something. At the end of the day, we see eye to eye http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#38 ·
This is an interesting thread.
From what I have gathered if I want to upgrade brakes, the best way is to get better pads that won't fade. Also to possible to take stock size rotors and have them crossdrilled.
Am I correct?
 
#39 ·
Re: Another proof why BIGGER brakes are NOT always best! (alexb75)

Quote, originally posted by alexb75 »
They SPECIFICALLY said, we lost power compared to stock!

So I mixed up one piece of information but you still havent said anything to dispute the other points I brought up.
You dont know what your talking about if you are contributing the lighter brakes to a 10hp wheel loss Sorry buddy there is no way in hell a stoptech brake kit is responsible for a 10hp loss on top of whatever the mugen exhaust made (if it made any hp). I've dyno'd my car and been to enough to know that just doesn't happen. Even if your theory is right and they are responsible for some power loss their is no way in hell does it explain the amount of power they loss. If you believe the mugen exhaust makes 10hp you are suggesting the brakes were responsible for a 20hp loss.




Modified by 02GTI-VR6-same1 at 7:30 AM 2-5-2005
 
#40 ·
Re: (FamTree,02GTI-VR6-same1)

Quote, originally posted by FamTree »
This is an interesting thread.
From what I have gathered if I want to upgrade brakes, the best way is to get better pads that won't fade. Also to possible to take stock size rotors and have them crossdrilled.
Am I correct?
Better pads on stock rotors is usally the way to go. Check around, there are some excellent pads available today. Hawk HPS is a great street/mild performance pad, much better than the stock pads. And there's a range all the way up to full race pads that work good enough cold that you can still use them on the street (Ferodo DS-2500 or Panther Plus).
As for drilled rotors. Buy them from a reputable manufacturer of brake components (Brembo or Zimmerman). Check http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1812125 for more information about rotors.
Quote, originally posted by 02GTI-VR6-same1 »
So I mixed up one piece of information but you still havent said anything to dispute the other points I brought up.
You dont know what your talking about if you are contributing the lighter brakes to a 10hp wheel loss

Are the brake rotors in this "upgrade" lighter weight and smaller in diameter than the stock rotors? The rotor is the main part that matters for inertia. It takes power from the engine to spin the rotor. If the rotor is heavier or larger in diameter, it's going to take more power to spin it. That's just the laws of physics in this universe. There's no way to get around that.
Quote, originally posted by 02GTI-VR6-same1 »
Sorry buddy there is no way in hell a stoptech brake kit is responsible for a 10hp loss on top of whatever the mugen exhaust made (if it made any hp). I've dyno'd my car and been to enough to know that just doesn't happen. Even if your theory is right and they are responsible for some power loss their is no way in hell does it explain the amount of power they loss. If you believe the mugen exhaust makes 10hp you are suggesting the brakes were responsible for a 20hp loss.
Depending on the type of dyno you use, you might or might not see an actual reduction in power from the larger brake rotors. If the dyno is an inertia based dyno, then it will show the losses from the rotors. If it's a brake type, torque measuring dyno, then it won't show any losses from the rotors because it measures torque and power with the engine in a steady state at constant speed (constant RPM's). The G-Tech Pro "horsepower" measurement is based no the inertia of the whole car and how the car accelerates. It calculates the horsepower necessary to make the entire vehicle accelerate as observed. This type of "horsepower" measurement will show a loss from heavier rotors (or larger diameter rotors or heavier wheels or larger diameter wheels).
The other type of inertial dyno is a chassis dyno with a big heavy roller and only a speed sensor on the roller. On this type of dyno, you put the drive wheels on the roller and accelerate from idle to redline with the throttle wide open the whole time. The computer on the dyno calculates horsepower based on how quickly the heavy roller accelerates and nothing else. This type of dyno doesn't measure torque directly. It measures how much the speed of the roller changes and based on the known weight and inertia of the roller, the torque applied can be calculated (and with torque and speed, hp is easy to calculate).
But even if you use a dyno that measures actual torque and calculates horsepower from that (this type of dyno won't show a horsepower loss from big heavy rotors or big heavy wheels), it doesn't change the absolute fact that larger diameter rotors (even if they weigh the same as the stock rotors) have more inertia than smaller diameter rotors, and heavier rotors have more inertia than lighter rotors.
Most of the big brake kits I've seen have very light calipers and larger, heavier rotors. They hurt acceleration due to the larger, heavier rotor. The lighter caliper kind of evens out (or even improves) total unsprung weight, so the handling and suspension load aspects are improved (or at least not harmed).
 
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