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uk_nick

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Additional road noise suppression

Now, don't get me wrong, the Phaeton is a very quiet car on the motorway/freeway at 70mph, but everyone has their own little obsessions and one of mine is road noise. That's one of the reasons I'm back in a Phaeton, but I'd like to spend a little time seeing if I can do more.
I'm thinking here of tyre and suspension noise/vibration: I love the sound of the engine and it's quiet enough at any speed, there's no exhaust noise to speak of, and there's a tiny bit of wind noise around the front mirrors/ A-pillars at "higher" speeds but I don't see how I can do anything about that.
So.... last time I went out in the car, I took a load of pillows and duvets with me and experimented with stuffing them in various places in the car, to see where the remaining road noise was coming from. My completely unscientific tests suggest there's some coming through around:
1) the trim panel between the rear passenger seat back and the rear passenger doors;
2) the front footwells, where they are up against the front wheel arches;
3) the lower portions of the doors / door seals.
I think I've managed to improve 1) by carefully feeding some noise-absorbing foam into the gap between the seat and the trim and curling it round and round so it sits snug against the trim panel and the metal behind it. You can do this without removing the trim panel, though removing it makes it easier initially to see what you're up against. I think this is a worthwhile "mod": it's made a pretty small difference, but it's only 20 minutes work. I used a specialist foam that I've used before on other cars: "Second Skin" Overkill Pro.
On investigating 2), I found there wasn't much that could be done easily and discreetly. The carpet in the footwells has very carefully moulded noise-absorbing foam stuck directly onto the back of it in most places, and I doubt much noise is getting through that: it looks like a lot of thought has gone into its composition and placement. I took off the trim panel that runs along the door sill and managed to wedge a couple of layers of foam in behind that, particularly the large squarish area at the front end of that panel, which doesn't seem to have much insulation under it as standard. You have to be clever here not to disturb the wiring and connectors that run behind the panel.
Dealing with 2) took another 30 minutes and I'm not sure it was worth it.
I've also put some special liner in the trunk/boot floor: it's a sandwich of two rubber layers with a foam middle layer. That may also have reduced the small amount of road noise coming from the back. Not sure, but I was going to do it anyway to protect the boot carpet.
Anyone else experimented with noise insulation ?
 
Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)

Hi Nick:
An interesting and thought-provoking post, thanks for writing it up.
I think that the one thing that your items 1) and 2) have in common is that they are both very close to where the wheel and tire is located. They are also both quite 'thin' areas - in other words, they don't afford VW the luxury of a whole lot of space to stuff sound absorbing material into.
You are correct, an enormous amount of thought (and time, and money) went into the design of the carpets. If you have a look at this post Retrofitting the OEM Fire Extinguisher to the Phaeton, you'll find some pictures that show how thick the sound absorbing material under the carpet is. In some places, it is over 8 inches thick.
The V10 powered Phaeton has additional sound-absorbing mats wrapped all around the front wheel well liners. The mats are on the engine side of the wheel well liners, not the wheel side. You might want to investigate the possibility of installing the V10 spec wheel well liners (with attached sound insulating panels) on your car. Wheel well liners are generally pretty cheap parts - I remember paying about ₤15 for a wheel well liner for my 2002 Golf - and they are easy to remove and replace. Ask the parts specialist at your VW dealer to have a look at illustration 821-10 in the parts catalog, and let you know the price for the V10 front wheel well liners.
It is fairly simple to remove the wheel well liners from the car (you just need a co-operative VW dealer who will loan you a hoist and a coverall for a day). This post: TB 00-06-02 - W12 (only!) Underbody Cover Attachment Modification contains quite a few pictures of the front wheel well liner removed from my car. Because I have a petrol engine, the liner does not have any sound absorbing mats around the outer circumference.
Another worthwhile option is to make a trip to the Phaeton Transparent Factory in Dresden, and ask your question there. The engineers are always happy to have owners visit, and my guess is that someone would take you up into the assembly area to allow you to have a look at all the nooks and crannies as the cars are being built. This would give you a really good perspective on how to approach the problem. By the way, the best way of doing that trip (from the UK) is to take the ferry from Harwich (the one you sleep on), then you can make a high-speed run right across Germany, and arrive in Dresden "without undue delay", if you know what I mean.
Image

Michael
 
Re: Additional road noise suppression (PanEuropean)

Just a post-script: The picture below shows what an insulated wheel-well liner from a V10 TDI looks like. Disregard the writing on the picture, it pertains to the W12 technical bulletin that I referenced in my post above.
Sound Insulation in V10 TDI Wheel Well Liner
Image
 
Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)

Hi Nick
I have exactly the same thoughts, beautiful car, but some of our roads do seem to create a fair bit of road noise. I have experimented with different brands of tyres on other cars I've had, and the different tread pattern and compound does make a difference.
I am looking at this for the paheton.I too would be very interested in installing the wheel liners and I shall contact my dealer next week.
I too think most noise is generated from the front footwell area that's where i suspect tyre noise is coming from.
I tried sealing up all the door gaps with special tape I use at work, but this did not make any diference.
Where did you get the foam from as I would like to try what did as well.
Having said all this the car is very good and I am definitely a proud ownwer. This is only a minor niggle but would be nice to solve. By the way Nick what tyresare you running,mine are Bridgestone. I am a member of Auto Express and they suggested Goodyear!
Keep me informed of any developments you make. If anybody else reads this thread and has any additional suggestions all would be gratfully received.
Regards
Peter
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Peter,
The foam I used behind the trim panels is Second Skin Overkill Pro, bought from
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk
The rubber/foam sandwich liner I used in the boot is Noisekiller Non Adhesive Acoustic Floor Mat. See
http://www.noisekiller.co.uk/s...4.php
My tyres are 255/45 R18 Dunlop SP Sport 9000s. I don't know how they compare to other tyres for road noise.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Michael,
Thanks for your comments.
How easy is it to take out 1) the rear seats 2) the trim panels around the rear wheel arches inside the boot/trunk, in a 5 seater model ? Is there a post covering this already ?
Regards
Nick
 
Re: (uk_nick)

Thanks Nick
The Low profile 45 do create some addiitonal road noise, I don't thick the Dunlops use the hardst compound. But tyres with the Asysemtric tread pattern will cut down the noise a little.
Most of the noise from tyres comes from the air being compressed in the tread grooves as the tyre rolls along. The larger the grooves the noisier the rubber. Big water pumping tyres have the largest grooves.
Thats why Im considering Pirelli, Goodyear, avon or vredestein
I have e mailed goodyear to sent me a sepc and picture of the tread pattern.
Will post it if it comes through.
 
Re: (plastech)

Hi Tony
I running Bridgestone 235/55/17 on inspirations wheels, On soft tarmac very quiet. By on general roads epecially the tarmac with large stones in( sorry don;'t know how to describe it) it become quite a noisy rumble all the time.
If anybody is running on Goodyear perhaps you could out your comments
 
Re: Additional road noise suppression (palladino)

Quote, originally posted by palladino »
I have experimented with different brands of tyres on other cars I've had, and the different tread pattern and compound does make a difference.

I agree that tire selection probably make the biggest difference in the amount of noise coming from the bottom of the car. I always been surprised when changing road surfaces how dramatically the noise quality and level changes.
I had a dealer disassemble a manual transmission on a Maxima as we were both convinced the incredible whining noise was coming from it rather than its actual source, the ultra-high performance summer tires. The noise gradually got worse as they wore and it was quite a relief when I changed them.
I now pay attention to the noise component when selecting tires. There's not much to go on (that I'm aware of) but I rely on the "Noise Comfort" level as reported in TireRack.com's tire user surveys. I know this reports users' subjective opinions, but I don't know of any other sources that report this either subjectively or through testing. Does anyone know any other sources for this information?
 
Re: Quiet car (Spectral)

Spectral,
The product link you supplied (www.quietcoat.com) states that Quietcoat bonds to metal. As the front fenders on a Phaeton are a composite plastic material, I wonder if Quietcoat will adhere to the composite material used to make the Phaeton's front fenders?
RB
 
Re: Quiet car (Rowayton)

Pulled from the site-
QuietCar can deaden steel, aluminum and composite materials. Applied properly, QuietCar can reduce the noise in your vehicle by up to 80%. It cleans up easily with plain water and is environmentally friendly
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Good discussion. I think we might end up making some useful improvements here, especially for us suffering Brits with our high performance summer tyres, high motorway speeds and poor road surfaces.
Spectral,
Cheers for the quietcoat link. I hadn't seen that one, but I've looked into other brands of liquid visco-elastomer type damping materials.
I'm going to pull out the front and rear wheel liners and investigate what scope there is for using something similar, as well as further matting. IIRC materials like quietcoat and solid equivalents like Dynamat Extreme are good at killing low frequency resonance/noise (and that's why bass junkies line their doors and trunk with it) whereas foam and rubber type mats are good at absorbing higher frequency noise. I'm minded to use both if possible. You seem to know your stuff on sound engineering: have I got this right ?
Michael, at first glance it looks like my V6 TDI already has the additional sound insulation in the liner that you mention. I don't think it's up to the job ! Probably it suppresses a lot of the noise firing directly at it, but doesn't butt up against the metal bodywork snugly enough and widely enough to suppress all the noise.
I'll report back when I know more of what I'm talking about....


Modified by uk_nick at 12:38 AM 9-27-2006
 
Re: Quiet car (palladino)

Quote, originally posted by palladino »
Hi Spectral
I had the AVS Decible on my Passat, they were pretty good, but was I told that there are better?
Peter

There may be a quieter tire than the AVS-DB. I don't know what it is, but it can't be that much quieter than the Yokos. On a smooth road, I couldn't hear any tire noise at all.
There are certain roads that will create lots of tire noise regardless of how quiet the tire is. Pavement that has been texturized for improved traction in wet or snowy conditions will make your tires hum pretty loudly in any car. Same goes for older pavement that has lots of smaller surface pits.
Our roads in Chicago are terrible. Washboard surfaces, textured pavement, poorly patched potholes, etc. Fortuneately, my travels take me to places that actually have some decent roads. I ran into a long strech of fresh black top on I74 from Indianapolis to Cincinatti recently. Fantastic road! Such a quiet and smooth ride. Almost makes me wish I lived in Shelbyville, IN....well not really.
 
Re: Additional road noise suppression (uk_nick)

A quote from the Bentley Flying Spur article in the Sept. 25 issue of AutoWeek magazine:
"Cruising at 60 mph and under full throttle, the noise level inside the Flying Spur is a tad louder than the Mercedes-Benz S500 and Volkswagen Phaeton; oddly, the difference is more pronounced at idle, where the Bentley fall up to 10 decibels short of the coffin-like quiet of those German models."
These are all quiet cars. I can whisper at 80 mph and be easily heard by my passengers. Most of the noise I hear is tire noise. I still think the most effective and economical path to a quieter cruise is a careful choice of tires (or tyres, if you're a Brit!).
 
Re: Quiet car (Spectral)

Quote, originally posted by Spectral »
You could also try applying a viscoelasitc coating to the wheel wells....

Don't do this to the exposed surfaces of the rear wheel wells of a Phaeton - they are carpeted on the side that is closest to the wheel, this is a noise reduction feature. I suspect that if the carpeting was covered over, noise would increase, not decrease.
Michael
 
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