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#102 ·
Re: (StormChaser)

I'm still waiting for a 7-page thread about scandalous tire valve caps. It's bound to happen sooner or later.
 
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#104 ·
Re: (WhistlerYOW)

Quote, originally posted by WhistlerYOW »

Sorry but you are way off the mark here. This topic has been rehashed over and over again since the Aura debuted and the auto press mistakenly referred to it as a Vectra clone. This is far from reality.
The Aura has LITTLE in common with the Vectra. The basic Epsilon platform is somewhat similar. Thats it. The Aura has WAAAAAAY more in common with the G6 and Malibu than it does with the Vectra. The Vectra is a closer relative to the 2004-07 Malibu than to the Aura.
The Aura uses the long wheelbase version of the Epsilon, a version of the platform which IIRC NO Opel sedan uses. The Vectra is on the short wheelbase Epsilon, the platform used for the now dead 2004-07 Malibu (a car, which if you look past the grille, actually bears a much stronger resemblance to the Vectra than the Aura does).

Too tired for a long response but in short...
Episilon, long wheel base... first car, Opel Signum like I said above.
To look at the Aura, its the Front end of an Opel Vectra and the back end of a Malibu Classic, last years model of Malibu before the redesign.
This doesnt seem like I'm way off the mark and it seems to me that you recall incorrectly thinking no Opel was built on Epsilons long platform.


Modified by FroOch at 9:58 AM 8-24-2008
 
#105 ·
Re: (FroOch)

Quote, originally posted by FroOch »

Too tired for a long response but in short...
Episilon, long wheel base... first car, Opel Signum like I said above.
To look at the Aura, its the Front end of an Opel Vectra and the back end of a Malibu Classic, last years model of Malibu before the redesign.
This doesnt seem like I'm way off the mark and it seems to me that you recall incorrectly thinking no Opel was built on Epsilons long platform.

Modified by FroOch at 9:58 AM 8-24-2008

Err the Opel Signum isn't a sedan...
Image

Its closest LWB American relative:
Image

And again, anybody with a brain can look past the front grille of the Aura and see it is not a Vectra. Just because the headlights look similar does not make it the same car.
Quit while you are ahead. Everyone knows you are wrong and you are just digging yourself a bigger hole. Face it, the Aura has little in common with the Vectra outside of its very basic architecture and a minor cosmetic front clip. The Aura has much more in common with the American Epsilon LWBs, the G6 and the 2008 Malibu.
And what are you smoking to say that the Aura has the back end of a Malibu? They look NOTHING alike, the rear of the Aura looks more like the G6...
Image

Image

Image



Modified by WhistlerYOW at 10:09 AM 8-24-2008
 
#106 ·
Re: (FroOch)

Quote, originally posted by FroOch »

To look at the Aura, its the Front end of an Opel Vectra and the back end of a Malibu Classic, last years model of Malibu before the redesign.

The front clip is intentional. But the truth is that the Aura is more closely related to the G6 than the Vectra.
Going forward, Saturn will be closely associated with Opel for cost reasons. But then again, all of GM is going to be more closely associated with its various parts, so that fact's not as meaningful as people would like to believe.
 
#107 ·
Re: (sump22)

Quote, originally posted by sump22 »
I hardly notice the badge. My dad finally got a C6 and he isn't taking it off. (Don't mind the Javelina on the hood either
Image
)
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With all the press on the ZR1, you quickly forget how NICE the "normal" Corvette is. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Sure is a purdy car.
Image
 
#108 ·
Re: (WhistlerYOW)

Quote, originally posted by WhistlerYOW »

Err the Opel Signum isn't a sedan...
Its closest LWB American relative:
[And again, anybody with a brain can look past the front grille of the Aura and see it is not a Vectra. Just because the headlights look similar does not make it the same car.
Quit while you are ahead. Everyone knows you are wrong and you are just digging yourself a bigger hole. Face it, the Aura has little in common with the Vectra outside of its very basic architecture and a minor cosmetic front clip. The Aura has much more in common with the American Epsilon LWBs, the G6 and the 2008 Malibu.
And what are you smoking to say that the Aura has the back end of a Malibu? They look NOTHING alike, the rear of the Aura looks more like the G6...

Err... No one said, Signum was a sedan. The point is that the LWB architecture was first used on an Opel.
And I'll concede to the second part regarding the cars back end. I misworded what I typed and meant the Vecrta shares Malibu's back end. Look at the roof line and the c pillar and down. It was early, my mistake. My noggin in its morning fog was then begining to forget what we're even talking about. My bad.
Lastly, I'm not sure anyone can say or believes otherwise that GM shares the parts bin all around the world. To answer the Mod's question, this is how it all relates to the thread. The General uses the mark to visibly tie it all together and we're all talking about the common bonds the mark signifies.
This all came from my comment originally about Saturn. And like I said before, Saturn is for all intents and purposes just rebadgers heavily using Opels and Opel concepts designs.
From the NY Times:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.co...deed/
Regarding the future of Saturns fresh designs...
GM Scoop
http://www.gmscoop.com/categories/saturn-page1.php
Find the rest on your own, its not hard with a Google search.
Image
 
#109 ·
Re: (FroOch)

Quote, originally posted by FroOch »
Lastly, I'm not sure anyone can say or believes otherwise that GM shares the parts bin all around the world. To answer the Mod's question, this is how it all relates to the thread. The General uses the mark to visibly tie it all together and we're all talking about the common bonds the mark signifies.
This all came from my comment originally about Saturn. And like I said before, Saturn is for all intents and purposes just rebadgers heavily using Opels and Opel concepts designs.
From the NY Times:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.co...deed/
Find the rest on your own, its not hard with a Google search.
Image


Do I have to hire a skywriter to reexplain this in 200 foot letters above your town? SATURNS ARE NOT REBADGED OPELS and that NY Times article is completely and utterly full of crap.
 
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#110 ·
Re: (DenCo)

Quote, originally posted by DenCo »

Do I have to hire a skywriter to reexplain this in 200 foot letters above your town? SATURNS ARE NOT REBADGED OPELS and that NY Times article is completely and utterly full of crap.

We agree to disagree.
Because I tend to not only agree with the NYTimes but...
MotorTrend
http://blogs.motortrend.com/62....html
International Herald Tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/20...n.php
CNN/Fortune
http://money.cnn.com/magazines...x.htm




Modified by FroOch at 1:14 PM 8-24-2008
 
#111 ·
Re: GM Badges on All Divisions (velocidub)

I saw a commercial during the Olympics yesterday for GM - not Chevy or GMC or Saab but all of GM, with all their marques displayed.
People buy a SAAB to get something different and Swedish. A Cadillac is supposed to be a Cadillac... not a spruced-up, overpriced Chevy. As the arguments here prove, it just highlights the obvious parts sharing and rebranding of all GM's products.
This has to be the dumbest marketing move ever... UNLESS the eventual plan is to ditch the Chevy, SAAB, GMC, Saturn, etc brands, cut 75% of their cannibalizing products and make every car a GM and a GM only. Good luck with that,
 
#112 ·
Re: GM Badges on All Divisions (Mister MK4)

Quote, originally posted by Mister MK4 »
I saw a commercial during the Olympics yesterday for GM - not Chevy or GMC or Saab but all of GM, with all their marques displayed.
People buy a SAAB to get something different and Swedish. A Cadillac is supposed to be a Cadillac... not a spruced-up, overpriced Chevy. As the arguments here prove, it just highlights the obvious parts sharing and rebranding of all GM's products.
This has to be the dumbest marketing move ever... UNLESS the eventual plan is to ditch the Chevy, SAAB, GMC, Saturn, etc brands, cut 75% of their cannibalizing products and make every car a GM and a GM only. Good luck with that,

I understand that but the flipside is better products. By global sharing GM is able to cut cost. They also put more products in their cars and across the brands have been using better materials reaping the benefit of that savings from sharing. By making the vehicles look different they make enough of a brand distinction within the US to survive.
You're right they could cut off names and still thrive. GMC could easily be merged into the Chevy lineup and sell off Saab. They'd never toss Chevy, Pontiac holds on by a sting but GM is trying hard to hold on just the same, and Buick is HUGE in China. Don't expect that name to go anywhere except over seas.
 
#113 ·
Re: (FroOch)

Quote, originally posted by FroOch »

We agree to disagree.
Because I tend to not only agree with the NYTimes but...

Except the fact that FUTURE product MAY be identical or much more in line with Opels, that doesn't make the current crop of product Opels. Plus I've read in at least one of those linked articles that "the Opel people will work together with the Saturn people." This would strongly suggest that Saturn, as a division, will not even BECOME a mere badge slapped on Opels. If the two divisions work together, even on one common product, it is a joint venture of both divisions. This false idea that any involvement from Opel makes the whole thing an Opel really, REALLY needs to stop.
besides, GM is GM and there really haven't been any independant divisions for AGES.*
* Except Saturn, early in its life.
 
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#114 ·
Re: (FroOch)

Quote, originally posted by FroOch »

Lastly, I'm not sure anyone can say or believes otherwise that GM shares the parts bin all around the world.

We most certainly can. The platforms may vary slightly this current iteration, but they're all the same base. Engines, electronics, transmissions, all that is the same worldwide.
 
#115 ·
Re: (DenCo)

Denco...Two of those articles were written no less than 3 years ago. One of them early this year, and that one only tries to decipher the 4 year old strategy with Saturn. The FUTURE you speak of is NOW.
If you think Saturn is making their own cars, can you find me an address for their R&D department? You have to realize, as a corporate entinty, GM had been losing alot of money on the Saturn line. What they did was scrap all of the current Saturns and take from the parts bin. They did this in a well documented year and a half turnaround for that division. GM didn't spend the new money soley on Saturn. They took away Saturn's independent identity and borrowed from what they already had, a European success. You think its a falsehood to hold onto Opels involvement, but not once have I seen you provide to me Saturn's involvement.
And GM started as a holding company meaning its a company who's sole purpose is to aquire and hold other car companies. The divisions haven't been for ages, they've been forever.
 
#116 ·
Re: (xdre)

Quote, originally posted by xdre »

We most certainly can. The platforms may vary slightly this current iteration, but they're all the same base. Engines, electronics, transmissions, all that is the same worldwide.

Yes, exactly and everyones knows it. Its not any new news.
 
#118 ·
Re: (FroOch)

Quote, originally posted by FroOch »

We agree to disagree.
Because I tend to not only agree with the NYTimes but...
MotorTrend
http://blogs.motortrend.com/62....html
International Herald Tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/20...n.php
CNN/Fortune
http://money.cnn.com/magazines...x.htm
Modified by FroOch at 1:14 PM 8-24-2008

The EVENTUAL plan is supposedly going to see the Opel and Saturn brands converge... but right NOW it is not the case. Honestly, I can't wait till we get more Opels here because they are great cars, but the fact stands that right now the only real Opel sold as a Saturn is the Astra.
The Aura is NOT a rebadged Vectra. No ifs, ands, or buts. Its simply a fact, no matter what the auto rags like to print. This was a falsehood spread from day one when a lot of the magazines printed that the Aura was based on the Vectra because it looks similar, when in reality its closest Epsilon relative was the G6 (and now 08+ Malibu).



Modified by WhistlerYOW at 8:26 PM 8-24-2008
 
#119 ·
Re: (StormChaser)

Quote, originally posted by StormChaser »

And again, this is WAY off the topic of the little badge. Knock it off, take the bimkering back & forth to IM, and keep this on topic...

Since when is it a rule we aren't allowed to go off topic in a thread when it still relates to cars? Almost every single thread in this forum eventually strays from the original post, not just this one... I mean come on we are still talking about GM, not Paris Hiltons new haircut
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Modified by WhistlerYOW at 8:40 PM 8-24-2008
 
#120 ·
Re: (DenCo)

Lemme try to set this straight once and for all.
1) Within the Auto industry (GM included) there are hundreds of types of engineers involved with the design of every aspect of the auto. This doesn't include MFG & ASM engineers, either. There are hundreds of parts and thus hundreds of engineers. Of course they don't all work in one place... heck, they don't work in one company, because many parts are sourced from suppliers.
2) Within GM (as with other companies with the similar global reach - Ford), there is NO SUCH THING as a COMPLETE amalgum of these engineers in any one region. Be it architecure or platform... chassis or suspension... frame or panels... engine or transmission... FEA or design... validation or development... calibration or testing... it goes on and on and on and on. You cannot even make heads or tails of the Org Chart, because there are so many intertwining links and cross matrixing of people and responsibilities across the global units it ain't funny. The point is NO region has a complete set of people to do the job (due to various reasons - business, personal, fate, etc.).
3) Some regional units have more resources than other with a particular function (validation, testing, FEA, architecture design, studio design, body sealer engineering!). Some have less resources. Some have NADA.

Given all of the above, projects are supported as required. There are regions assigned a particular platform (a subset of the vehicle architecture... the specific model on that architecture), because... well... it makes sense to spread the work... be it justified by experience, need to spread work (uhhh... efficiency?), ain't nobody else got time, economics, the market, etc. Since resources are not thorough... it only makes sense that any and all projects will see varying levels of SUPPORT from other regions... from a little to HOLY ****, I need some help, ASAP!!!
From the top levels of platform/vehicle leadership down to the grunt manning the dyno cell or the tube jockey waiting for the FEA to finish... the nationality varies as does one's actual physical locale. You could have a foreigner working in a different region, teaching or aiding said region with your personal, home-grown skill set (American, Korean, German, French, Australian, Mexican, etc.)... or vice versa.
For people to speak as if any one region is special or particularly better talented or engineers anything better is laughable at best, because the overlap of SHARED work across the projects is growing more and more everyday.
For those who think an Epsilon for a Vectra may be better than one for a Malibu should think twice, because you have no idea what people were involved (ex. My Chaldean-American buddy who works in B&W MFG Engineering has had US & global projects to work on. Then there is my buddies in Mexico, Australia, China, and Korea representing their home-grown skillz abroad. Heck, you can include myself and my wife for that matter down here in Mexico. My wife manages a GLOBAL team of purchasing buyers in US, Mexico, Brazil, Korea, and Germany.
No region (US-included) is a COMPLETE organization. It doesn't need to be, because there is too much capacity as is in the industry. Given that, it is sensible/obvious to see the work being spread globally in order to best UTILIZE the resource capacity you have in Engineering. This is no different than trying to fully utilize the HOURLY capacity you have. In MFG, the term for the individual jobs is WORK ELEMENT. There are some work elements that are "TRANSFERABLE" (i.e. It doesn't matter where in the process of MFG or ASM you do it, because it is not sequencially special to the overall part. The SAME goes for engineering... work elements. With today's internet and speed of communciations, CAD/etc. can be sent around the world to be done and returned or transferred somewhere else to continue the work.
 
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