http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32...life/
Good thing ther GPS batteries held out....RIP.
Modified by Spa_driver at 11:14 AM 8-8-2009
Good thing ther GPS batteries held out....RIP.
Modified by Spa_driver at 11:14 AM 8-8-2009
GPS leads Cherokee into Death Valley death trap.
Spa_driver
21 - 40 of 85 Posts
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Re: (Merc-MarkO)
I was thinking exactly the same thing.
![Image]()
She wasn't exactly Nora the Explorer either, going into Death Valley in the summer time with no maps and 12 bottles of water per person.
![Image]()
| Quote, originally posted by Merc-MarkO » |
Really now ?? |
I was thinking exactly the same thing.
She wasn't exactly Nora the Explorer either, going into Death Valley in the summer time with no maps and 12 bottles of water per person.
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30,340 Posts
Probably one of the weirdest situations of survival i've ever heard.
Absolutely no planning or supplies in one of the most desolate areas in North Ameria.
Honestly. Just plain stuipd. It's unfortunate a young boy had to lose his life due to his mother's inept decisions.
Absolutely no planning or supplies in one of the most desolate areas in North Ameria.
Honestly. Just plain stuipd. It's unfortunate a young boy had to lose his life due to his mother's inept decisions.
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10,140 Posts
Re: FV-QR (HaterSlayer)
Death Valley is a really huge place. Without more details on where exactly they got stuck, it's hard to know how far a hike out would be. The reality though, is that hiking out of DV in the daytime is suicidal.
Her biggest FAIL was not leaving some kind of trip plan with friends or family or the park service. Ranger stations are there for a reason, people!
This is a pretty typical disaster story though. A small series of problems and mistakes ends up leading to a catastrophic failure.
I've been to DV a couple of times. Once on Memorial Day weekend, the other in March. It was interesting being in 127F heat. I had to change a tire one day after driving out to the Racetrack Playa on a really terrible gravel road. The lug nuts on my rental Trailblazer were so hot I couldn't touch them with my bare hands.
At the time I didn't have a GPS, just a decent map, common sense, and a few gallons of water.
The March trip was made in my Cherokee 4.0 (nevar die) and we went off-road for a while. It was fun and interesting to visit some lesser-travelled areas of the park, but definitely unnerving in the sense that you really are on your own if something goes wrong.
Death Valley is a really huge place. Without more details on where exactly they got stuck, it's hard to know how far a hike out would be. The reality though, is that hiking out of DV in the daytime is suicidal.
Her biggest FAIL was not leaving some kind of trip plan with friends or family or the park service. Ranger stations are there for a reason, people!
This is a pretty typical disaster story though. A small series of problems and mistakes ends up leading to a catastrophic failure.
I've been to DV a couple of times. Once on Memorial Day weekend, the other in March. It was interesting being in 127F heat. I had to change a tire one day after driving out to the Racetrack Playa on a really terrible gravel road. The lug nuts on my rental Trailblazer were so hot I couldn't touch them with my bare hands.
At the time I didn't have a GPS, just a decent map, common sense, and a few gallons of water.
The March trip was made in my Cherokee 4.0 (nevar die) and we went off-road for a while. It was fun and interesting to visit some lesser-travelled areas of the park, but definitely unnerving in the sense that you really are on your own if something goes wrong.
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21,174 Posts
Re: (leaftye)
How many smart chicks rely on a GPS. In a desert. ?
| Quote, originally posted by leaftye » |
How many dumb suv driving chicks you know that have ever changed a tire themselves on their suv and take vacations in the desert. 
|
How many smart chicks rely on a GPS. In a desert. ?
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Re: GPS leads Cherokee into Death Valley death trap. (leaftye)
She drove off of any sort of road, and ventured off into the middle of the desert with absolutely nothing around her (by the sounds of it), no cell phone reception, and clearly no campgrounds (y'know, since there were no ****ing roads!). Who cares if she changed a tire? As for the food and water, they were going camping, so it's not like she was simply preparing for an emergency.
Basically, had she any logic whatsoever, she shouldn't have driven off the road and into the middle of Death ****ing Valley in the middle of August with nothing more than a GPS.
She's 100% to blame.
| Quote, originally posted by leaftye » |
| I can't really blame the mother for this. They had a decent vehicle, had already fixed a flat, had gps and had plenty of water (3 gallons). The article said the vehicle fell thru an animal den, which explains why it couldn't get out. That's certainly much different than merely spinning the tires into the ground. She even climbed a local peak to get reception. Could she have done better? Sure, she should've told people exactly where she was going. She could've had a winch, a short wave radio, several cases of Costco size water bottles instead of just one case, a shovel, a tracked vehicle, etc. Maybe hiking out would've been best, but how far off of a main road were they? Did they have packs to carry all the water they'd need to make that hike? The only fault I see is that she didn't tell people exactly where she was going, but I don't do that either. |
She drove off of any sort of road, and ventured off into the middle of the desert with absolutely nothing around her (by the sounds of it), no cell phone reception, and clearly no campgrounds (y'know, since there were no ****ing roads!). Who cares if she changed a tire? As for the food and water, they were going camping, so it's not like she was simply preparing for an emergency.
Basically, had she any logic whatsoever, she shouldn't have driven off the road and into the middle of Death ****ing Valley in the middle of August with nothing more than a GPS.
She's 100% to blame.
Re: GPS leads Cherokee into Death Valley death trap. (leaftye)
Good observations. It looks like she was much more prepared that I would have guessed. Having lived an offroaded in AZ, here are some other ideas:
* Don't go wheelin' in 120 degree heat
* Burn some tires during the day - have a way to set your tires on fire
* Use the mirror on the jeep to signal aircraft or UFO (there are a lot of military aircraft nearby)
* Sit under the jeep instead of inside of it
| Quote, originally posted by leaftye » |
| I can't really blame the mother for this. They had a decent vehicle, had already fixed a flat, had gps and had plenty of water (3 gallons). The article said the vehicle fell thru an animal den, which explains why it couldn't get out. That's certainly much different than merely spinning the tires into the ground. She even climbed a local peak to get reception. Could she have done better? Sure, she should've told people exactly where she was going. She could've had a winch, a short wave radio, several cases of Costco size water bottles instead of just one case, a shovel, a tracked vehicle, etc. Maybe hiking out would've been best, but how far off of a main road were they? Did they have packs to carry all the water they'd need to make that hike? The only fault I see is that she didn't tell people exactly where she was going, but I don't do that either. |
Good observations. It looks like she was much more prepared that I would have guessed. Having lived an offroaded in AZ, here are some other ideas:
* Don't go wheelin' in 120 degree heat
* Burn some tires during the day - have a way to set your tires on fire
* Use the mirror on the jeep to signal aircraft or UFO (there are a lot of military aircraft nearby)
* Sit under the jeep instead of inside of it
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Re: (justanotherusername)
How did the son die?
I mean, she lived, the dog lived....
How did the son die?
I mean, she lived, the dog lived....
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21,174 Posts
Re: (leaftye)
When you're in a hole, stop digging. The complete absence of any and all of those things are reason why she should not have been out there.
| Quote, originally posted by leaftye » |
Was there a road, town, shelter, water source nearby that'd be on a map?
|
When you're in a hole, stop digging. The complete absence of any and all of those things are reason why she should not have been out there.
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12,837 Posts
Re: (leaftye)
She was going to a campground, so there's a fair chance it would have been on a map, and she hopefully would have realized that, "hey, I'm nowhere near where I should be, better turn around!".
| Quote, originally posted by leaftye » |
Was there a road, town, shelter, water source nearby that'd be on a map?
|
She was going to a campground, so there's a fair chance it would have been on a map, and she hopefully would have realized that, "hey, I'm nowhere near where I should be, better turn around!".
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Re: GPS leads Cherokee into Death Valley death trap. (leaftye)
A couple of points.
A - 3 gallons isn't "plenty of water" for that kind of heat. It's not even close. You need that much water per person per DAY in 110 degree heat.
B - When they got the flat tire, they should have turned around right then. At that point she was "working without a net" because she no longer had a spare.
| Quote, originally posted by leaftye » |
| I can't really blame the mother for this. They had a decent vehicle, had already fixed a flat, had gps and had plenty of water (3 gallons). The article said the vehicle fell thru an animal den, which explains why it couldn't get out. That's certainly much different than merely spinning the tires into the ground. She even climbed a local peak to get reception. . |
A couple of points.
A - 3 gallons isn't "plenty of water" for that kind of heat. It's not even close. You need that much water per person per DAY in 110 degree heat.
B - When they got the flat tire, they should have turned around right then. At that point she was "working without a net" because she no longer had a spare.
Sounds like she was just like most folks who get into trouble in the backcountry, which is to say otherwise fairly intelligent people who know just enough to not get into trouble 99 times out of 100, but who are just arrogant enough to believe that the 100th time will never happen to them. And then they're so comprehensively and shamefully ****ed that they usually die or kill somebody dependent on them. The noobs get into their share of trouble, but it's the casually familiar amateurs that get killed.
The simple fact is that there are still places on this Earth where casual, arrogant, complacent decisionmaking will get you killed. High mountains are one, deserts are most emphatically another. Modern human society has filed the edges off of a lot of territory, populated it with cities and towns and ranger stations and people paid to save you from yourself, and so people tend to lapse into the assumption that you can take the careless attitudes of safe territory into the wilderness. And so they take chances, neglecting to bring necessary equipment, not turning back when it's advisable to, continuing to push forward instead of retracing their steps, trying to climb the nearest peak for cell reception (a famously stupid idea), not bringing detailed maps they know how to read, not checking local weather. They follow GPS units instead of maps, they drive cross country instead of on established trails, they fail to bring sufficient water, they enter dangerous areas like slot canyons and famously hot deserts in August....thinking that they're on familiar ground rather than staring into the abyss.
And, as somebody who's done a lot of travel in some very abyssal country over the years, it's infuriating to me that people refuse to treat the wilderness as wilderness. I see idiots in sandals, carrying a water bottle and a Clif bar, summiting 14,000 foot mountains with storm clouds building on the horizon, groups filing into Utah slot canyons during rainstorms, and hiking in the Sonoran Desert at midday in July. And there's this little part of me that almost hopes they'll get scared ****less so they'll display a little ****ing respect. I don't wish death - though many of them are actively welcoming it - just a bit of pure, unadulterated epic fear for their lives.
Oh, and the idiot with the sandals and water bottle on the fourteener was me, at age 17. Glad I didn't lose the frostbitten toes and that the SAR team found me before the hypothermia got too bad. I come by my extreme fear and respect of the elements honestly.
Modified by Turbiodiesel! at 11:33 AM 8-8-2009
The simple fact is that there are still places on this Earth where casual, arrogant, complacent decisionmaking will get you killed. High mountains are one, deserts are most emphatically another. Modern human society has filed the edges off of a lot of territory, populated it with cities and towns and ranger stations and people paid to save you from yourself, and so people tend to lapse into the assumption that you can take the careless attitudes of safe territory into the wilderness. And so they take chances, neglecting to bring necessary equipment, not turning back when it's advisable to, continuing to push forward instead of retracing their steps, trying to climb the nearest peak for cell reception (a famously stupid idea), not bringing detailed maps they know how to read, not checking local weather. They follow GPS units instead of maps, they drive cross country instead of on established trails, they fail to bring sufficient water, they enter dangerous areas like slot canyons and famously hot deserts in August....thinking that they're on familiar ground rather than staring into the abyss.
And, as somebody who's done a lot of travel in some very abyssal country over the years, it's infuriating to me that people refuse to treat the wilderness as wilderness. I see idiots in sandals, carrying a water bottle and a Clif bar, summiting 14,000 foot mountains with storm clouds building on the horizon, groups filing into Utah slot canyons during rainstorms, and hiking in the Sonoran Desert at midday in July. And there's this little part of me that almost hopes they'll get scared ****less so they'll display a little ****ing respect. I don't wish death - though many of them are actively welcoming it - just a bit of pure, unadulterated epic fear for their lives.
Oh, and the idiot with the sandals and water bottle on the fourteener was me, at age 17. Glad I didn't lose the frostbitten toes and that the SAR team found me before the hypothermia got too bad. I come by my extreme fear and respect of the elements honestly.
Modified by Turbiodiesel! at 11:33 AM 8-8-2009
Re: GPS leads Cherokee into Death Valley death trap. (leaftye)
Actually, from that description, the only way she could have been worse outfitted as to leave everything at home.
- A stock Cherokee's underspecified cooling system makes it a poor choice for summer desert travel. If the animal den hadn't done it, an overheating four point oh might have.
- A TomTom is not really a decent navigation GPS. USGS Quads, a backcountry-oriented GPS, and a good compass are the only acceptable navigation tools once you're off paved roads.
- For two people and a dog in 117 degree heat, three gallons is enough for about, oh, 5-7 hours - tops. They should have been carrying at least fifteen - even if they were only planning on driving paved roads. At that heat and humidity, you can lose a liter an hour even at low exertion levels - another flat tire or an overheated engine and they'd have been seriously pushing it. Just driving in a car in a summer desert, I've guzzled a gallon every couple hours. If they'd stayed on paved, traveled roads, this would have been a prudent amount of water, but off? Hell naw.
- For her to be stuck in an animal den, she would have had to be traveling off of established trails. This is a huge and obvious mistake.
- Like you say, a shovel is standard equipment for desert travel. Not having one is simply poor preparedness, period. A winch isn't, but a Pull-Pal and a Warn would have gotten her out. Same with a shortwave - not always necessary, but a hell of a gamble to omit.
- Even if she had all of the above, she was without a spare, having already used it; as JAUN notes above, she was working without a safety net. I've seen brand new kevlar-lined all-terrain tires ripped to shreds in the desert - the tires on a nurse's old Cherokee are not something I'd bet on in the Mojave.
Now, you may be inclined to forgive her for not knowing all of this. I'm not. Ignorance is no excuse, because the elements don't give a **** why they're killing you. They just do it. If you're arguing she should be forgiven for not knowing, I simply have to ask why she didn't.
Modified by Turbiodiesel! at 12:23 PM 8-8-2009
| Quote, originally posted by leaftye » |
| I can't really blame the mother for this. They had a decent vehicle, had already fixed a flat, had gps and had plenty of water (3 gallons). The article said the vehicle fell thru an animal den, which explains why it couldn't get out. That's certainly much different than merely spinning the tires into the ground. She even climbed a local peak to get reception. |
Actually, from that description, the only way she could have been worse outfitted as to leave everything at home.
- A stock Cherokee's underspecified cooling system makes it a poor choice for summer desert travel. If the animal den hadn't done it, an overheating four point oh might have.
- A TomTom is not really a decent navigation GPS. USGS Quads, a backcountry-oriented GPS, and a good compass are the only acceptable navigation tools once you're off paved roads.
- For two people and a dog in 117 degree heat, three gallons is enough for about, oh, 5-7 hours - tops. They should have been carrying at least fifteen - even if they were only planning on driving paved roads. At that heat and humidity, you can lose a liter an hour even at low exertion levels - another flat tire or an overheated engine and they'd have been seriously pushing it. Just driving in a car in a summer desert, I've guzzled a gallon every couple hours. If they'd stayed on paved, traveled roads, this would have been a prudent amount of water, but off? Hell naw.
- For her to be stuck in an animal den, she would have had to be traveling off of established trails. This is a huge and obvious mistake.
- Like you say, a shovel is standard equipment for desert travel. Not having one is simply poor preparedness, period. A winch isn't, but a Pull-Pal and a Warn would have gotten her out. Same with a shortwave - not always necessary, but a hell of a gamble to omit.
- Even if she had all of the above, she was without a spare, having already used it; as JAUN notes above, she was working without a safety net. I've seen brand new kevlar-lined all-terrain tires ripped to shreds in the desert - the tires on a nurse's old Cherokee are not something I'd bet on in the Mojave.
Now, you may be inclined to forgive her for not knowing all of this. I'm not. Ignorance is no excuse, because the elements don't give a **** why they're killing you. They just do it. If you're arguing she should be forgiven for not knowing, I simply have to ask why she didn't.
Modified by Turbiodiesel! at 12:23 PM 8-8-2009
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Re: GPS leads Cherokee into Death Valley death trap. (justanotherusername)
Exactly! And going off-road in Death Valley with passengers in the summer could be considered pre-meditated murder.
![Image]()
| Quote, originally posted by justanotherusername » |
A couple of points. A - 3 gallons isn't "plenty of water" for that kind of heat. It's not even close. You need that much water per person per DAY in 110 degree heat. B - When they got the flat tire, they should have turned around right then. At that point she was "working without a net" because she no longer had a spare. |
Exactly! And going off-road in Death Valley with passengers in the summer could be considered pre-meditated murder.
Re: GPS leads Cherokee into Death Valley death trap. (Spa_driver)
I'd consider it negligent manslaughter, but same diff.
| Quote, originally posted by Spa_driver » |
Exactly! And going off-road in Death Valley with passengers in the summer could be considered pre-meditated murder.
|
I'd consider it negligent manslaughter, but same diff.
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Re: (gotta_jet)
Still, the tiny little daschund survived. I'm going to guess the mother put the kid in the Jeep while she was off "hiking" around.
| Quote, originally posted by gotta_jet » |
umm probably from being stranded in the middle of death valley.
|
Still, the tiny little daschund survived. I'm going to guess the mother put the kid in the Jeep while she was off "hiking" around.
Re: (nickthaskater)
Kids' thermal regulation systems are not fully developed until the early teenage years. I'd bet that he was physiologically underequipped to handle extreme temperatures, whereas his mom and the dog had developed thermoregulatory systems. He was likely more susceptible to heat stroke than his mom was.
Water is one of the primary backcountry treatments for the conditions, ironically enough.
Modified by Turbiodiesel! at 12:21 PM 8-8-2009
| Quote, originally posted by nickthaskater » |
Still, the tiny little daschund survived. I'm going to guess the mother put the kid in the Jeep while she was off "hiking" around. |
Kids' thermal regulation systems are not fully developed until the early teenage years. I'd bet that he was physiologically underequipped to handle extreme temperatures, whereas his mom and the dog had developed thermoregulatory systems. He was likely more susceptible to heat stroke than his mom was.
Water is one of the primary backcountry treatments for the conditions, ironically enough.
Modified by Turbiodiesel! at 12:21 PM 8-8-2009
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Re: (gotta_jet)
she may have made some mistakes, but i feel sad for this lady & the loss of her son.
![Image]()
she may have made some mistakes, but i feel sad for this lady & the loss of her son.
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