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New Bushings: Defcon 2 or Defcon 3?

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#21 ·
Re: (l88m22vette)

Quote, originally posted by l88m22vette »
It rides better?! crap, now I have another purchase on the list, thanks a lot Joe
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So the wife gets in the car after I swap in the sphericals in the front, ground control camber plates and all sphericals in the control arms in the rear and says "what did you do to the car - I can't believe how much better the ride is" LOL
YMMV
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#25 ·
Re: (Neb)

Quote, originally posted by Neb »
so you say defcon in the front and spherical in the rear for a sold handling with a lowered car?

In all honesty - i'd do spherical in both positions of the front LCA. Nothing really to loose but I already had Defcons in and therefore didn't want to remove them. If I had stock LCA's i'd have done the front spherical as well. The Defcon in front and spherical in the rear is very good combo though.
 
#26 ·
Re: (joe@vwvortex)

If you have all solid metal connections (even with the thin Teflon wear surface likely to be in the sphericals), you WILL increase NVH. The bush that remains in your DEFCON install is the only element damping out the harshness that would be there if you went all spherical.
FWIW, PowerFlex has a NEW rear bush that incorporates a spherical bush in to a sleeve of urethane (they call it a "Race" application). I have had a set for over a year, but have yet to install them. They will certainly outperform their old product, as well as the OEM solution. They are $240 for a pair. If someone wants to try them in a "better than DEFCON1" setup (DEFCON0?), let me know and we can work something out.

Modified by MCPaudiTT at 2:20 PM 10-30-2009


Modified by MCPaudiTT at 2:24 PM 10-30-2009
 
#27 ·
Re: (MCPaudiTT)

Quote, originally posted by MCPaudiTT »
If you have all solid metal connections (even with the thin Teflon wear surface likely to be in the sphericals), you WILL increase NVH. The bush that remains in your DEFCON install is the only element damping out the harshness that would be there if you went all spherical.

IF this were the case - the DEFCONS would add NVH because they are adding more metal and removing more rubber. They didn't. Until you actually have driven them - I wouldn't state they WILL - but rather they MIGHT.
Everyone told me that I'd have more NVH with Ground Control Camber plates and well - I don't. In fact my worn out stock strut bushes had more. Yes they were worn out - but they collapsed again after about 10k. After three replacements, I got tired of replacing them all the time. Granted my car sees 10-12 track days a year - more than most.

Quote »
FWIW, PowerFlex has a NEW rear bush that incorporates a spherical bush in to a sleeve of urethane. I have had a set for over a year, but have yet to install them. They will certainly outperform their old product, as well as the OEM solution. They are $240 for a pair. If someone wants to try them in a "better than DEFCON1" setup (DEFCON0?), let me know and we can work something out.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. You add lateral compliance which allows for more movement of the LCA allowing for your caster and toe to change under hard cornering. Also f it isn't pressed in - it could still do this......
Image

Which happened to mine two days after the install.
There is no downside to the rear sphericals at all, except the tricky install. They have worked flawlessly since I got them installed right.
 
#28 ·
Re: (joe@vwvortex)

Joe, I am not disagreeing with you for the most part. However, if you put sphericals in all 4 postions, you will have more NVH. There would be nothing compliant in the system at all. I agree with you that putting sphericals in the rear is (likely, since I haven't personally done it) a good improvement. BUT, if you put them up front AND in the rear position on the front arms, vibrations have no where to go but the chassis. With the DEFCONs up front still, like you have, there is a rubber/urethane element in the chain that can soak up the vibrations to a degree and keep them from going straight to the chassis. The amount of compliance is minimal, as the rubber/urethane material left is minimal, but there is still something there to absorb the NVH.
Also, as I said, the new PowerFlex design is MUCH improved over the old one you have pictured. However, I have not yet installed it, so I can't yet recommend it with my own road tested experience. They came up with a much more secure mounting method that is much easier for the end user to successfully complete than their old method, and also easier than how I understand the H2O Sport go in (not everyone can afford to install those parts 3 times to finally get it done right...). I do NOT recommend the old Powerflex system, I don't sell it, and I recommend others don't buy it. That is not the case with their new design.

As to your statement "I'm sorry but this makes no sense. You add lateral compliance which allows for more movement of the LCA allowing for your caster and toe to change under hard cornering. Also f it isn't pressed in - it could still do this......" - Huh? The new parts will GREATLY reduce compliance over the OEM solution or the old PowerFlex solution (but will admittedly likely have slightly more than your H2O Sport solution). It is a spherical at the core, and a relatively thin Urethane shell. The shell is there to absorb some NVH, and to allow the part to be pressed in and expand in to a friction seating. I am not clear on what doesn't make sense about this approach.
There doesn't have to be a winner and a loser in this conversation.


Modified by MCPaudiTT at 2:54 PM 10-30-2009
 
#29 ·
Re: (MCPaudiTT)

Quote, originally posted by MCPaudiTT »
Joe, I am not disagreeing with you for the most part. However, if you put sphericals in all 4 postions, you will have more NVH. There would be nothing compliant in the system at all. I agree with you that putting sphericals in the rear is (likely, since I haven't personally done it) a good improvement. BUT, if you put them up front AND in the rear position on the front arms, vibrations have no where to go but the chassis. With the DEFCONs up front still, like you have, there is a rubber/urethane element in the chain that can soak up the vibrations to a degree and keep them from going straight to the chassis. The amount of compliance is minimal, as the rubber/urethane material left is minimal, but there is still something there to absorb the NVH.
Also, as I said, the new PowerFlex design is MUCH improved over the old one you have pictured. However, I have not yet installed it, so I can't yet recommend it with my own road tested experience. They came up with a much more secure mounting method that is much easier for the end user to successfully complete than their old method, and also easier than how I understand the H2O Sport go in (not everyone can afford to install those parts 3 times to finally get it done right...). I do NOT recommend the old Powerflex system, I don't sell it, and I recommend others don't buy it. That is not the case with their new design.

Not everyone has had to install it three times to get it right either - and H2sport will do the install for you if you'd like. Also due to my experience - they have also added some additional steps into the install instructions.
Quote »
As to your statement "I'm sorry but this makes no sense. You add lateral compliance which allows for more movement of the LCA allowing for your caster and toe to change under hard cornering. Also f it isn't pressed in - it could still do this......" - Huh? The new parts will GREATLY reduce compliance over the OEM solution or the old PowerFlex solution (but will admittedly likely have slightly more than your H2O Sport solution). It is a spherical at the core, and a relatively thin Urethane shell. The shell is there to absorb some NVH, and to allow the part to be pressed in and expand in to a friction seating. I am not clear on what doesn't make sense about this approach.
There doesn't have to be a winner and a loser in this conversation.

Why encase the bearing in urethane if using a solid bearing has no affect on NVH? The urethane isn't doing anything except adding horizontal compliance.
Not looking to win anything - just expressing my opinions based upon my experiences.
 
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