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Golf TDI performance boosts to get to GTI level?

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specterunseen

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'd LOVE a GTD in the USA. I'd be the first to toot the TDI horn in a 4 door GTI. As it is, don't see it happening in the US for a long time. SO, I noticed the new golf tdi and got to thinking.
Same body, different engine and some suspension, tuning and trim.
WHAT would it take to bring a Golf TDI up to par with the GTI in overall performance, better suspension, and tuning? The interior is pretty much the same if you add leather from what I gather, so what about overall performance? I'd love to wail on a TDI with that torque and still get 40+ mpg and 600 miles on a tank!
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What would it take, and would it end up being totally cost prohibitive and warranty voiding.....I'd think some aftermarket would get you better bang for the buck than OEM?
 
#2 ·
Re: Golf TDI performance boosts to get to GTI level? (specterunseen)

The suspension is already very close (it is lowered and stiffer compared to the 2.5 Golf)- all I would do is a slightly thicker rear sway bar and Koni FSD shocks. But then, I think that lowering is mostly done for cosmetic purposes - anything lower than about 1" from the stock suspension would usually be detrimental to the geometry and handling. And the difference between the stock height and 1" lower would likely be difficult to feel on regular roads (well, you probably could feel it - but not in a positive, handling sense!
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) outside a track.
ECU tuning of this engine in Europe gives you about 175 - 180hp. However, that is not yet available here because we have the NO_x cat in addition to the Euro version (DPF is in both), and supposedly an additional EGR treatment.
If you wanted more than that, you would likely need larger injectors and perhaps a bigger turbo and intercooler. I haven't seen an exact list of differences between the 140hp and 170hp versions of these engines, but the 170hp version can be tuned to roughly 200hp (and, of course, has much more torque than a stock GTI).
In the end, for people who don't drive a ton of miles, it probably makes more sense to get the GTI in the first place. You get the XDS ("fake" but effective e-LSD) that is not available for the TDI. The GTI also gets great mileage - you should be able to get 33-35mpg on the highway if you take it a bit easy.
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Modified by feels_road at 5:23 PM 11-30-2009
 
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#3 ·
Re: Golf TDI performance boosts to get to GTI level? (feels_road)

From the OP's comments, I'm guessing the TDI's fuel economy is important, or they wouldn't be asking (they'd just go get a GTI).
Chip tuning (when available) is the first place to start, would get you pretty darn close to GTI level, is the biggest bang for the buck, and least likely to get you into warranty trouble. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Beyond that, performance injectors (IF/when available) is about the only other thing you could do without getting real serious and $$.
True the Golf TDI doesn't get XDS, but fwiw it does get the ESP package with ASR (if that stuff's even important
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)




Modified by DiezNutz at 8:46 AM 12-1-2009
 
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#4 ·
Re: Golf TDI performance boosts to get to GTI level? (specterunseen)

OP, if you're looking for 0-60 GTI performance, then you'll be disappointed in the TDI, even with a tuned ECU. 0-60 situations are not a TDIs forte and are its weak point actually. In-gear acceleration is where a TDI shines and even a stock TDI isn't too far off a stock GTI. The main problem you'll face, at least for now, is that none of the reputable TDI tuners are offering a tune for the new 2.0l common rail TDIs. The new TDI has been out for over a year now in the U.S. and yet still none of the reputable tuners have a product. The main obstacles seem to be emissions equipment-related; i.e., DPF (this one's not a biggie since the European cars also have a DPF), NOx filter and two EGR systems (high pressure and low pressure). The new TDI found in the U.S. was designed for the North American market and is not currently found in Europe, which I suspect is a big part of the European ECU tunes don't cross over. That, and the N.A. 2.0l CR TDI uses EDC17 and I think the European cars are still using EDC16.
Moral of the story, if you get a TDI, don't expect to be able to get any power gains for a while (or maybe never, we don't know). You can change/upgrade everything else though to GTI specs!
 
#5 ·
Re: Golf TDI performance boosts to get to GTI level? (Pelican18TQA4)

We were in the OP's situation, too; wanted a GTD, and not the watered down U.S. version. We even contemplated waiting for someone to total their GTI and buying the entire interior: trim, flat-bottomed steering wheel, seats and everything.
In the end, though, the TDI just ain't a GTI, and if you really want the GTI, I don't think the TDI will make you happy. The TDI doesn't have the razor sharp turn in and lively feel of the GTI, and it's much more prone to understeer. Not enough rear bar, too much weight on the nose, who knows. Between that and the red stitching, it was all over for us.
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#6 ·
Re: Golf TDI performance boosts to get to GTI level? (vwtool)

Quote, originally posted by vwtool »
The TDI doesn't have the razor sharp turn in and lively feel of the GTI, and it's much more prone to understeer. Not enough rear bar, too much weight on the nose, who knows.

Actually, the TDI is listed as 40lbs lighter. My guess is firstly and most importantly the rear sway bar (now yet thicker for the GTI than with the MkV), then the slightly different spring ratings. All that is not expensive to adjust. And the much more prone to understeer I kind of doubt, but I'll have to get back to that once mine is coming in!
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#7 ·
I'd just get a GTI personally, judging by what you're seeking.
Unless you're doing a ton of miles...
I'm still on my first tank of gas in this car and with half a tank left I've already put on more KM's than I got on an entire tank in my previous car (Z4 M Coupe) - so I'm ecstatic about that.
 
#9 ·
Re: (blueguydotcom)

Quote, originally posted by blueguydotcom »
I wish VW did this too as I trust the TDI engine to run forever. I do not feel that way about the TFSI 2.0 engine.

Actually, I have a lot more confidence in the the totally revised "TSI" version (available since 2008.5) than in the previous (original MkV/A3) "TFSI" 2.0.
At least, for now, it does not appear to have any of the issues that plagued the old one (DV, PCV, CAM/ CAM-follower fuel pump, oil usage, etc.).



Modified by feels_road at 12:55 PM 12-2-2009
 
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Discussion starter · #10 ·
GREAT posts and answers. I think the GTI or r32 (or r20 if it makes it)... will be better for my likes. I have the 2002 1.8t so I imagine I'd be pleased with the newer TSI versions... now the only other mental debate I have is IF the Golf GTI-R (or Golf R20, whatever they call it).... is worth the extra funds over a GTI? I LOVE the idea of an AWD, but wonder if I'm not tracking it how much difference I'd notice.... as I'm not a racer, but enjoy the occasional backroads and WOULD like to do an an occasional "track your car" day.
 
#11 ·
Re: (feels_road)

Quote, originally posted by feels_road »
Actually, I have a lot more confidence in the the totally revised "TSI" version (available since 2008.5) then in the previous (original MkV/A3) "TFSI" 2.0.
At least, for now, it does not appear to have any of the issues that plagued the old one (DV, PCV, CAM/ CAM-follower fuel pump, oil usage, etc.).

This. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I think there is still a bit of old stigma surrounding the earlier FSI that folks have yet to "shake off".
 
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#12 ·
Re: (DiezNutz)

I'm leaning toward a TDI over the GTI as the in-town fuel economy of the TDI golf makes sense for my family car. I know the GTI will have a higher top end, but the torque numbers are in favor of the TDI. Here is my short list of performance adds for my (future) TDI Golf:
1. Stiffer rear sway bar (I'd take one from a GTI. I know someone on Vortex that modded a GTI and has "left-over" parts;
2. Short shift kit
3. bigger brakes (big brake kit or GTI or R32 or Audi S4 brakes)
4. Coil-over suspension
These add ons would make my TDI handle as good or better than a GTI and bigger brakes means longer straight-aways and faster speeds.
Next, depending on what's available:
5. high-flow intake
6. Exhaust
and then, after all that,
7 Chip tuning and injectors
But, I most iikely will just stop with items 1 - 4 as this is my family car and I don't need to have more performance from my TDI.
 
#13 ·
FV-QR

Quote, originally posted by Peter_Rabbit »

...
3. bigger brakes (big brake kit or GTI or R32 or Audi S4 brakes)
...

Don't bother with bigger brakes unless one of two things are true:
A) You are doing it for looks OR
B) You are going to track your car
Stopping distance is a measure of caliper clamping force and tire stickiness. If a car can lock up its wheels or engage ABS, adding bigger brakes won't help anything. The real purpose of a big brake kit is for heat dissipation. That is, if you are on your brakes long enough/ hard enough ( like on a race track) for the pad material to start to melt or for your fluid to boil, you need bigger brakes. The bigger brakes provide more mass through which to dissipate the heat before it causes damage.
It's true that different pads can make a difference in stopping distance and feel, but all different pads do is change the characteristics of how the rotors is grabbed.
For the money you can spend on bigger brakes, you can get yourself some better tires. Better tires will help with accelerating, turning, and stopping. Which is way better than a big brake kit (which only increases unsprung mass and huts all three of those aspects).
Dollar for dollar, tires are one of the best improvements anyone can make to his vehicle. It's amazing how many people over look it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#14 ·
FV-QR

Ya know... I've been browsing the mkVI forum trying to get a feel for the new models (I may end up with either a 4 door GTI or a Tig), and this has got to be one of the most informative threads I've read in a good while. Big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for you guys, for sure!
 
#15 ·
Re: FV-QR (TeamZleep)

If your definition of performance is broader than 0-60 times, then there are a lot of easy mods that can get your tdi to handle as good (or better) than a stock GTI. (Of course, you could do the same mods on a stock GTI and then out-perform a GTI
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).
 
#16 ·
Re: FV-QR (NicholasJay)

Quote, originally posted by NicholasJay »
Don't bother with bigger brakes unless one of two things are true:
A) You are doing it for looks OR
B) You are going to track your car
Stopping distance is a measure of caliper clamping force and tire stickiness. If a car can lock up its wheels or engage ABS, adding bigger brakes won't help anything. The real purpose of a big brake kit is for heat dissipation. That is, if you are on your brakes long enough/ hard enough ( like on a race track) for the pad material to start to melt or for your fluid to boil, you need bigger brakes. The bigger brakes provide more mass through which to dissipate the heat before it causes damage.
It's true that different pads can make a difference in stopping distance and feel, but all different pads do is change the characteristics of how the rotors is grabbed.
For the money you can spend on bigger brakes, you can get yourself some better tires. Better tires will help with accelerating, turning, and stopping. Which is way better than a big brake kit (which only increases unsprung mass and huts all three of those aspects).
Dollar for dollar, tires are one of the best improvements anyone can make to his vehicle. It's amazing how many people over look it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

X2. So true. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I admit I'm a fan of performance pads and drilled/slotted rotors mainly for better feel and fade resistance, but tires come first.
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#17 ·
Re: FV-QR (NicholasJay)

Quote, originally posted by NicholasJay »
Stopping distance is a measure of caliper clamping force and tire stickiness. If a car can lock up its wheels or engage ABS, adding bigger brakes won't help anything. The real purpose of a big brake kit is for heat dissipation. That is, if you are on your brakes long enough/ hard enough ( like on a race track) for the pad material to start to melt or for your fluid to boil, you need bigger brakes. The bigger brakes provide more mass through which to dissipate the heat before it causes damage.
It's true that different pads can make a difference in stopping distance and feel, but all different pads do is change the characteristics of how the rotors is grabbed.

So true, here is my basic brake FAQ which has some mag scans which also talk about this: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/brake_FAQ.htm , in one of the tests the stock passat had consistent brakes over 25 panic stops. The other explains in detail why.
 
#18 ·
Re: FV-QR (NicholasJay)

Quote, originally posted by NicholasJay »

Dollar for dollar, tires are one of the best improvements anyone can make to his vehicle. It's amazing how many people over look it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

X2
Even on the Rabbit good 17" performance tires make a huge difference. I run Yoko S-Drives on Classix and it has been a great set up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Of course cheap second hand GTI suspension bits also help ...
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