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the secret to red bulls qualifying speed revealed??

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CL111583

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
A secret of Red Bull's superior pace in the decisive Q3 phase of qualifying may have been revealed.

Autosprint reports that the team has a special electronic setting for the Renault engine that maintains a constant exhaust gas pressure.

When selected, exhaust gases flow at a constant rate through the double diffuser, even when the driver is not pressing the throttle. This would increase downforce at slow speeds.

The setting, revealed initially on the blog of the British journalist James Allen, is reportedly used sparingly - for example only in Q3 - because it is damaging to the engine.

The RB6 has been on pole position at eight of the nine races so far this season.
 
#2 ·
That makes little or no sense, but then if the original source was James Allen I'm not that surprised. How do electronics maintain gas speed? That is an action of engine speed. Or is it supposed to have some sort of exhaust gas reservoir?

The main cause of Red Bull's speed is Adrian Newey.
 
#4 ·
So Red Bull has figured out how to create exhaust gas w/o burning fuel? An engine is an air pump, you can't maintain exit pressure/volume/speed w/o maintaining the input. Not to mention that w/ the limit on the # of engines you can use, I don't think a team would risk blowing one up in qualifying just to get the pole position. Honestly, you call yourself a fan of the top technological tier in motor racing, yet you'll buy this rubbish? As FBB said, the source of Red Bull's pace is AN. I know he can work magic, but even he can't create something out of nothing.
 
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#5 ·
Doesn't look like it is about creating something out of nothing...

This guy explains it well here:

gruntguru said:
- There is no need to burn fuel in the exhaust to augment exhaust flow.
- The throttles would need to be held open by some means. (Is DBW allowed)
- An example of the strategy would be: constant throttle cornering a say 100kW - wth the timing significantly retarded, the throttle would need to be much wider open than normal to still achieve the 100kW required. With the wider throttle opening, the mass flow will be significantly greater than usual for 100kW. In addition. the exhaust temperatre will be much higher due to the lower thermal efficiency. This will further increse the exhaust volume and velocity.

Taken to its extreme the strategy would be to hold the throttle wide open and control the output (as dictated by the driver) by retarding the timing. In practice this would result in excessive exhaust temperature but you get the idea.
Click to expand...
http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=132030 (about half way down the page)
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
#7 ·
I gave this some thought on the drive home and the only thing I can come up with is that they might divert the air supply for the pneumatic valve system which I believe can be replenished before race start as it bleeds down. If that is the case, I'm sure others will be doing it too and it could explain Ferraris mystery need to have components in their air system updated earlier this season.

If it were the answer to RB's qualifying performance, how come when they're not crashing into other people they sod of into the distance during the race? I'm sticking with Newey being the reason. After all, in the past 18 years there have only been three seasons that the drivers title hasn't been won by either Newey or Schumi/Brawn.
 
#8 ·
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#10 ·
fatbaldbloke said:
That makes little or no sense, but then if the original source was James Allen I'm not that surprised.
Click to expand...
I've read comments like this before and don't quite get them.
I actually bought his year in review book from last year's season and was amazed at how on the money his through the season commentary was.
I believe that he is highly considered in the F1/ Journalism community and don't get the criticism.
Care to elaborate?

I mean is it "I'm really in the dark about what is being talked about, so i'm gonna divert attention and criticize the source" kind of a scenario?

If so, then don't feel bad cause i haven't figured it out either. :thumbup:
 
#12 ·
kfzmeister said:
I believe that he is highly considered in the F1/ Journalism community and don't get the criticism.
Care to elaborate?
Click to expand...
He is far from highly considered among F1 fans and motoring communities in the UK. Largely as a result of his several years as a commentator when ITV had the F1 franchise and he across as a simpering idiot stating the bleeding obvious. This led to a popular movement to "Stop the ****", started by Sniffpetrol.com and much supported. The man has named his poor unfortunate offspring Enzo and Emerson FFS.
The main concern when the BBC regained coverage and were to name their team was that he wouldn't be there. Fortunately the BBC used Jonathon Ledgard, one of their radio F1 commentators, alongside Brundle. He's far from being St Mudly Talker, but he's a hell of a lot better than Allen.

I couldn't find the pic of the guy standing next to Allen a coupe of years ago wearing the T-shirt, so this will have to do.

Image


(do NOT google Stop the **** as an image search with safe search off :eek: )
 
#13 ·
Sniffpetrol.com? Now there's a site with nothing but worthless crap. Based upon that your comment about Allen is utter nonsense.

Turns out that Allen's comments about the RBs exhaust system were spot on. Again.

:screwy:
 
#14 ·
Okay...Krf...

For argument sake, say that is the case, and Adrian Newey has out wit the F1 crowd again, with some old fashion brain power and clever re-work of old tech, I can't see the engines being that reliable. At 18K revs, that mapping would be diasterous, if not a time bomb! Much less the massive heat sump.

Might this be the explanantion to Vettels previous detonations? Maybe the first itterations of the mapping proved volatile? Cause I could've sworn after they corrected whatever it was that was blasting their engines, they rocketed to the front.

But I don't buy it till I see it... And while in theory this works, or for even lower tech'ed race engine, I just can't see RBR going for such a "iffy" bit of engineering brilliance.

Kid
 
#15 ·
Brooklyn.Auto.Rennen said:
Okay...Krf...

For argument sake, say that is the case, and Adrian Newey has out wit the F1 crowd again, with some old fashion brain power and clever re-work of old tech, I can't see the engines being that reliable. At 18K revs, that mapping would be diasterous, if not a time bomb! Much less the massive heat sump.

Might this be the explanantion to Vettels previous detonations? Maybe the first itterations of the mapping proved volatile? Cause I could've sworn after they corrected whatever it was that was blasting their engines, they rocketed to the front.

But I don't buy it till I see it... And while in theory this works, or for even lower tech'ed race engine, I just can't see RBR going for such a "iffy" bit of engineering brilliance.

Kid
Click to expand...
Isn't it only for one or two laps during Q3? So what, maybe 10 mins total out about 10 hrs of life for the engine? However, I can see how this would be extremely hard on the engine and everything around the exhaust manifold as far as heat generation.
 
#16 ·
If this system is deployed only for qualifying, thus ensuring pole (or front row lockout which we've seen a ton of this season), then it is worth it.

Perhaps this is why we see huge margins between first-second and the next set of cars.
 
#17 ·
Also, check out the on board laps of Webber/Vettel vs. the rest of the field during Silverstone qualifying. They were almost flat out through the first long right hander or as it seemed. Fast forward to the actual race, redbulls are clearly lifting a bit during that same corner. Which could be because the throttle was wide open during qualy vs. normal for race conditions. Same thing for Turkey's famous turn 8.
 
#18 ·
wiredvw said:
Isn't it only for one or two laps during Q3? So what, maybe 10 mins total out about 10 hrs of life for the engine? However, I can see how this would be extremely hard on the engine and everything around the exhaust manifold as far as heat generation.
Click to expand...
I can't say, cause this is news to me too. Haven't touch bases with my insiders yet, so this is mighty shocking.

Maybe on the last 2 flying laps before Q3 ends, yeah but AFAIK, F1 engines don't disapate heat quickly. And the engines are already at max tolerance to maintain that 10 hour shelf life, no? So say they run this mapping each Q3...that's alot of extra heat exchange on those valves, pistons and exhaust parts, not to mention bodywork. I'm just saying, this just sounds too risky. And wouldn't Renault have to had manufactured the remaining 6 engines to the new tolerances? I can't see them not having questions about the integrity of the engines, under this load, though no throttle is involved.
 
#19 ·
Brooklyn.Auto.Rennen said:
I can't say, cause this is news to me too. Haven't touch bases with my insiders yet, so this is mighty shocking.

Maybe on the last 2 flying laps before Q3 ends, yeah but AFAIK, F1 engines don't disapate heat quickly. And the engines are already at max tolerance to maintain that 10 hour shelf life, no? So say they run this mapping each Q3...that's alot of extra heat exchange on those valves, pistons and exhaust parts, not to mention bodywork. I'm just saying, this just sounds too risky. And wouldn't Renault have to had manufactured the remaining 6 engines to the new tolerances? I can't see them not having questions about the integrity of the engines, under this load, though no throttle is involved.
Click to expand...
I hear ya! I wonder if that is why that large hole in the back of the body work (engine cover) has grown since the beginning of the season. The Torro Rosso does not have the feature...and they started from the same design from 2009.

RBR's (just beyond the McLaren) - the top small hole is for the blown rear wing, but the bottom hole is massive.
Image


Torro Rosso
Image
 
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