VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum banner
Cancel
Create thread New Garage Forums

DQ200 DSG in global recall. Possibly affects Jetta Hybrid.

Jump to Latest
41 - 60 of 74 Posts
#43 ·
Got the letter on friday, went down to the dealer on Saturday to make an appointment. They said they would call back on Monday, he has to talk to the warranty department first.

He also stated he has to look to see what he needs to order to do the job.

Not all dealers will have this on hand.

Special Tools Information
One set of special tools will be shipped to the Service manager at each dealership prior to customer notification.
U.S. Dealers
Your shipment contains:
• (1) Adapter Fitting, SET-34F6/1. This is an interim tool used for filling the gearbox. When available, one (1) VAS 6262/4 Adapter Fitting will be shipped to your dealership to replace the interim tool.
• (1) Bottle, ET-34F6/2
Canadian Dealers
Your shipment contains:
• (1) Adapter Fitting, VAS 6262/4
• (1) Bottle, ET-34F6/2

The service guy asked me if I was experiencing any problems, I told him no. From what I read in the forums it was how you drove the car in stop and go traffic from constantly riding the brake to control how fast you moved forward and constantly moving forward every inch because the car moved an inch front of you.

If I did that with a manual I would burn out the clutch. When I drove my manual cars I would wait for the car in front to get 2-3 car lengths ahead before putting it into gear and releasing the clutch and if I were lucky I could leave it in gear and let it idle forward at a slow crawl while I watched the cars in front stopping and going. When I got rid of the previous car which was new when I got it, I had 165,000 miles on the clutch. If I didn't get rid of it to buy a new Jetta I most likely would've gotten 250,000+ miles on the first clutch.

So basically:

Don't ride the brake to control forward speed from a stop, in stop and go traffic.

Don't inch yourself forward every time the car in front of you moves.

Do wait for the car in front to get ahead some distance and completely release the brake.



One other thing comes to mind when reading this http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f40/dsg-woes-age-86315-56.html#post960458 the clutch was getting approximately 800+ degrees Fahrenheit.
The hybrids have a permanent magnet AC drive motor mounted right next to that clutch. High heat can demagnetize permanent magnets. If they are using Neodymium Iron Boron which would give maximum torque then highest working temp would be a little over 400 degrees if they are using high temp rated mgnets. http://www.ndfeb-info.com/temperature_ratings.aspx
The hybrids DQ200 has a coolant line coming in for the electric drive motor and from the drawings online the permanent magnets are located to the outside perimeter which is close to the cooling jacket.

Couple of things come to mind:

1) What's the cooling rate of the electric drive motor VS how hot the clutch gets in stop and go traffic?

2) The heat moved from the source to the surrounding areas and eventually broke down the oil, if it can break down the oil it could damage the electric motor if the cooling rate is not fast enough.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #44 ·
My question is how does mineral oil stop this same heat build up? My service manager at the dealership here has his hands tied until VW Germany gives the ok to do anything, which it hasn't. He has been proactive and researched the issue and says he can't see how changing to this new oil affects the MU in anyway as the oil and the MU barely interact if at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
Also what would be the effect of driving in manual mode 95% of the time? I do it to avoid juddering in gear 2 after the transmission has heated up and accelerating from stop or slow uphill corners. Any other benefits of using gear 1 95% of time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#46 ·
Rawcpoppa said:
My question is how does mineral oil stop this same heat build up? My service manager at the dealership here has his hands tied until VW Germany gives the ok to do anything, which it hasn't. He has been proactive and researched the issue and says he can't see how changing to this new oil affects the MU in anyway as the oil and the MU barely interact if at all.
Click to expand...
The mineral oil is not going to stop the heat build up. VW switching to mineral oil is that it will not become conductive as with the synthetic oil when exposed to high heat.

Now how does the gearbox oil interact with MU, that's the question.

I couldn't see it at first looking at pics of MU's. It looks sealed right no place for the oil to interact with, no connections. (these pics came from here use Google translate http://www.5i01.cn/topicdetail.php?f=609&t=2841364 )
Image

Image




Then I see this pic which is the backside of the TCU. You can see two rows of four connectors and a seal around each row of connectors, with a connecter in the middle. If those seals let go or were never completely sealed then the synthetic oil that became conductive can seep in and short circuit those connections.
Image



Rawcpoppa said:
Also what would be the effect of driving in manual mode 95% of the time? I do it to avoid juddering in gear 2 after the transmission has heated up and accelerating from stop or slow uphill corners. Any other benefits of using gear 1 95% of time?
Click to expand...
Found this link only could access it is with Google cache gave a server not found with direct link. It describes K1 and K2 clutch interference. How closely does it relate to your juddering issues. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fcache.nevkontakte.com%2Fproxy.html#!go/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.889car.com%2Fnews%2F1432%2Finterpretation-of-the-popular-problem-models-on-recall-dsg-solutions%2F

Also found this link which describes quality issues in the manufacturing process of the MU. Use Google translate http://www.xcar.com.cn/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=16446429&page=1
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#48 ·
elumination said:
... I couldn't see it at first looking at pics of MU's. It looks sealed right no place for the oil to interact with, no connections...
... Then I see this pic which is the backside of the TCU. You can see two rows of four connectors and a seal around each row of connectors, with a connecter in the middle. If those seals let go or were never completely sealed then the synthetic oil that became conductive can seep in and short circuit those connections...
Click to expand...
About "pics of MU's".

For additional information, please take a look at most detailed pictures (all internal details of DSG-7(DQ200) mechatronic):
http://www.auto9999.net/viewthread.php?tid=32168
 
#49 ·
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#50 ·
I think you guys are confusing things. This recall does not pertain to a Mechatronics replacement (the clutch-related problem). The gearbox oil is breaking breaking down the lead contained inside the gearbox, which causes the gearbox oil to become conductive, which causes electrical faults in the transmission, which opens both clutches and makes it impossible to move the car (it will free-wheel, just can't accelerate). This problem isn't braking the Mechatronics, per se. The two fluids (Mechatronics and gearbox) are separate from each other. The gearbox uses standard manual transmission fluid; the Mechatronics uses its own kind of fluid (synthetic).

Also, for clarity purposes (in bold​)...

elumination said:
From what I read in the forums it was how you drove the car in stop and go traffic from constantly riding the brake to control how fast you moved forward and constantly moving forward every inch because the car moved an inch front of you.

So basically:

Don't ride the brake to control forward speed from a stop, in stop and go traffic.

Don't inch yourself forward every time the car in front of you moves.

Do wait for the car in front to get ahead some distance and completely release the brake. I THINK the Hybrid handles this process a little different. In stop-go driving (assuming the engine isn't running and the car is running all-electric) the clutch is fully engaged. Remember, the electric motor doesn't have an idle speed. The K1 clutch (or K2 if 2nd gear is selected) is fully engaged when the engine isn't running. Clutch slip isn't needed to get the car moving because the electric motor doesn't have to be turning all the time like the engine is. The ECU just varies the juice going to the electric motor to control the initial movement when you let off the brake pedal, just like it does any other time the electric motor is being used. Now, if the engine is running when you let your foot off the brake, then yes, the transmission will slip the clutch till the car is moving fast enough to have the respective gear fully engaged. Just as it does when the engine restarts while you're accelerating (just about when the transmission shifts into 2nd gear in my experience).

One other thing comes to mind when reading this http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f40/dsg-woes-age-86315-56.html#post960458 the clutch was getting approximately 800+ degrees Fahrenheit. Not sure how they figured that out since the only temp sensor is contained inside the Mechatronics unit and it relates to the fluid that fills the Mechatronics. The clutches on the DQ200 do not have temp sensors.
The hybrids have a permanent magnet AC drive motor mounted right next to that clutch. High heat can demagnetize permanent magnets. If they are using Neodymium Iron Boron which would give maximum torque then highest working temp would be a little over 400 degrees if they are using high temp rated mgnets. http://www.ndfeb-info.com/temperature_ratings.aspx In-between the double-clutches and the electric motor are the dual-mass flywheel and the hybrid clutch pack; I would think that direct heat transfer to the electric motor would be minimized because of this.
The hybrids DQ200 has a coolant line coming in for the electric drive motor and from the drawings online the permanent magnets are located to the outside perimeter which is close to the cooling jacket. The coolant line is attached to the electric motor, which is not directly attached to the DQ200; i.e., just like in other applications, the DQ200 in the Hybrid doesn't have any coolant connections.

Couple of things come to mind:

1) What's the cooling rate of the electric drive motor VS how hot the clutch gets in stop and go traffic?

2) The heat moved from the source to the surrounding areas and eventually broke down the oil, if it can break down the oil it could damage the electric motor if the cooling rate is not fast enough. Heat is not the problem in the recall we are seeing in the U.S. As mentioned above, the recall we are seeing is to correct a problem with the synthetic gearbox fluid corroding the lead contained inside the gearbox, which is causing the gearbox fluid to become conductive, which is causing electrical shorts, which causes the CAN-BUS system to shut down the transmission, opening the clutches and causing the loss of all motive power.
Click to expand...
elumination said:
The mineral oil is not going to stop the heat build up. VW switching to mineral oil is that it will not become conductive as with the synthetic oil when exposed to high heat. The recall we are talking about that results in the replacement of the gearbox oil is not a result of a heat-related problem. See above.

Now how does the gearbox oil interact with MU, that's the question.

I couldn't see it at first looking at pics of MU's. It looks sealed right no place for the oil to interact with, no connections. (these pics came from here use Google translate http://www.5i01.cn/topicdetail.php?f=609&t=2841364 )
Image

Image




Then I see this pic which is the backside of the TCU. You can see two rows of four connectors and a seal around each row of connectors, with a connecter in the middle. If those seals let go or were never completely sealed then the synthetic oil that became conductive can seep in and short circuit those connections. This is the back-side of the Mechatronics, the side that faces the front of the car. This IS NOT the side of the Mechatronics that comes into contact with the transmission, and not the side that would ever come in contact with the gearbox fluid. The pics above, with the aluminum-looking metal cover? That is the side that attaches to the transmission and comes into contact with the gearbox fluid. The metal cylinders with the 'arms' sticking out of them are the actuators that move the shifter forks.
Image





Found this link only could access it is with Google cache gave a server not found with direct link. It describes K1 and K2 clutch interference. How closely does it relate to your juddering issues. http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...news/1432/interpretation-of-the-popular-problem-models-on-recall-dsg-solutions/

Also found this link which describes quality issues in the manufacturing process of the MU. Use Google translate http://www.xcar.com.cn/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=16446429&page=1
Click to expand...
 
#51 ·
Pelican18TQA4 said:
I think you guys are confusing things. This recall does not pertain to a Mechatronics replacement (the clutch-related problem). The gearbox oil is breaking breaking down the lead contained inside the gearbox, which causes the gearbox oil to become conductive, which causes electrical faults in the transmission, which opens both clutches and makes it impossible to move the car (it will free-wheel, just can't accelerate). This problem isn't braking the Mechatronics, per se. The two fluids (Mechatronics and gearbox) are separate from each other. The gearbox uses standard manual transmission fluid; the Mechatronics uses its own kind of fluid (synthetic).
Click to expand...
My response is in bold

I THINK the Hybrid handles this process a little different. In stop-go driving (assuming the engine isn't running and the car is running all-electric) the clutch is fully engaged. Remember, the electric motor doesn't have an idle speed. The K1 clutch (or K2 if 2nd gear is selected) is fully engaged when the engine isn't running. Clutch slip isn't needed to get the car moving because the electric motor doesn't have to be turning all the time like the engine is. The ECU just varies the juice going to the electric motor to control the initial movement when you let off the brake pedal, just like it does any other time the electric motor is being used. Now, if the engine is running when you let your foot off the brake, then yes, the transmission will slip the clutch till the car is moving fast enough to have the respective gear fully engaged. Just as it does when the engine restarts while you're accelerating (just about when the transmission shifts into 2nd gear in my experience). I already knew this from observing the electric motor and regenerative cycle in stop and go traffic. My comment is more universal and good practice to cover both hybrid and non-hybrid vehicles, with the hybrid constantly inching forward it will put more draw on the battery to drive the electric motor with little to no return in regeneration and using more of my mechanical brakes but if I wait for traffic to get ahead and let off the brake completely with a little tap on the accelerator(which I mean tap and let go) I can get a longer regenerative cycle and use less mechanical brakes for a given distance. There has been rare occasions the gas engine is running while I'm at a stop and to prevent additional wear in this case I would wait for the cars in front to get some lead ahead.


Not sure how they figured that out since the only temp sensor is contained inside the Mechatronics unit and it relates to the fluid that fills the Mechatronics. The clutches on the DQ200 do not have temp sensors.No sensors needed metal will discolour when exposed to high temperatures and for a given temp it will result in a different colour or shade of colour. I'm guessing when someone removed the transmission they discolouration around the clutch components.


In-between the double-clutches and the electric motor are the dual-mass flywheel and the hybrid clutch pack; I would think that direct heat transfer to the electric motor would be minimized because of this.Unfortunately no, the zeroth law of thermodynamics says equilibrium is attained between two bodies.

The coolant line is attached to the electric motor, which is not directly attached to the DQ200; i.e., just like in other applications, the DQ200 in the Hybrid doesn't have any coolant connections.Yes I know there are no direct connections to the DQ200, the lines go through the cover plate of the bell housing of the DQ200. I guess I should of worded that better.

Heat is not the problem in the recall we are seeing in the U.S. As mentioned above, the recall we are seeing is to correct a problem with the synthetic gearbox fluid corroding the lead contained inside the gearbox, which is causing the gearbox fluid to become conductive, which is causing electrical shorts, which causes the CAN-BUS system to shut down the transmission, opening the clutches and causing the loss of all motive power.

They weren't referring to lead as the metal, but they were referring to a leadframe
Image
"A common type of chip package that uses metal leads that extend outside the housing". In this case this will be the entire TCU/assembly which has leads/connectors protruding from its frame which power the solenoids and hydraulic pump motor.
The cover plate you mentioned is what I saw and knew what was behind it from this photo
Image
which is the brain of the mechatronics. There are leadframes here too but I didn't think at first this was the source the electrical failure as there's a perimeter seal and the circuit board looks like it is covered in some sort of resin protecting it.


This is the back-side of the Mechatronics, the side that faces the front of the car. This IS NOT the side of the Mechatronics that comes into contact with the transmission, and not the side that would ever come in contact with the gearbox fluid. The pics above, with the aluminum-looking metal cover? That is the side that attaches to the transmission and comes into contact with the gearbox fluid. The metal cylinders with the 'arms' sticking out of them are the actuators that move the shifter forks.Yes I know this is backside of the mechatronics which I called it a TCU(transmission control unit) the gearbox oil can get behind there as it is open you can see this with the link above provided from member UKV. The only thing preventing the gearbox oil going over to the other side are four seals, three are for the connectors and one for the clutch position sensor and that seal is on the other side MU.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #52 · (Edited)
I'm not totally mechanically inclines but I would think the problem of the dq200 on synthetic oil is irrelevant of whether it's in a hybrid or regular engined vehicle.

All that matters is some sort of interaction between the synthetic oil and the mechatronic unit. How this occurs I am still not sure as multiple VAG releases have been broad or contradictory.

My guess would be the corrosion of the side with the pistons of the mechatronic unit. If the mechatronic unit had no involvement whatsoever then recall 35c1 (which involved replacing mechatronic units from 2008-2011 cars) would have been for no reason. 34f6 is just for newer cars and I suspect VW thinks these cars haven't been on the road long enough to have sufficiently corroded mechatronic units. Just my theory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#53 ·
Pelican18TQA4 said:
I think you guys are confusing things. This recall does not pertain to a Mechatronics replacement (the clutch-related problem)...
Click to expand...
Just to help.

There is interview with VW New Zealand boss Tom Ruddenklau about this issue:
Explains Ruddenklau: “It’s come to light that the synthetic oil was causing corrosion to the electronic control module, so switching to mineral oil stops that.”
Click to expand...
, http://nz.lifestyle.yahoo.com/autos.../blogs/richard-bosselman/b/-/19908545/vw-nz-boss-confident-as-more-recalls-hit/

Additional:
The VWA spokesman said existing mechatronics units are being replaced with a newly developed unit and the gear fluid was being changed.
Click to expand...
, http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/volkswagen-dsg-recall-delays-20131115-2xmoq.html

Also recommended next articles:

Das Problem ist der Schwefel
http://www.handelsblatt.com/auto/te...auto/test-technik/dsg-rueckruf-bei-vw-das-problem-ist-der-schwefel/9076570.html

DQ200 - Das große Problem des VW-Konzerns
http://www.handelsblatt.com/auto/na...n/doppelkupplungsgetriebe-dq200-das-grosse-problem-des-vw-konzerns/9074256.html

Sorry..., its in German's language, but could be easy translated to English by Google or similar.
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
UKV said:
Just to help.

There is interview with VW New Zealand boss Tom Ruddenklau about this issue:
, http://nz.lifestyle.yahoo.com/autos.../blogs/richard-bosselman/b/-/19908545/vw-nz-boss-confident-as-more-recalls-hit/

Additional:
, http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/volkswagen-dsg-recall-delays-20131115-2xmoq.html

Also recommended next articles:

Das Problem ist der Schwefel
http://www.handelsblatt.com/auto/te...auto/test-technik/dsg-rueckruf-bei-vw-das-problem-ist-der-schwefel/9076570.html

DQ200 - Das große Problem des VW-Konzerns
http://www.handelsblatt.com/auto/na...n/doppelkupplungsgetriebe-dq200-das-grosse-problem-des-vw-konzerns/9074256.html

Sorry..., its in German's language, but could be easy translated to English by Google or similar.
Click to expand...
Good info here.

Do you have any idea why not all DQ200 gearboxes between certain production periods filled with synthetic oil haven't been recalled? For example does it matter if a DQ200 gearbox with code (e,g NQA, NQB, MGM etc) filled with synthetic isn't recalled vs one say with the jetta hybrid DQ200 gearbox (I can't remember the 3 digit code) filled with synthetic is recalled?
 
#55 ·
Rawcpoppa said:
Do you have any idea why not all DQ200 gearboxes between certain production periods filled with synthetic oil haven't been recalled? For example does it matter if a DQ200 gearbox with code (e,g NQA, NQB, MGM etc) filled with synthetic isn't recalled vs one say with the jetta hybrid DQ200 gearbox (I can't remember the 3 digit code) filled with synthetic is recalled?
Click to expand...
I remembered these articles which might explain why some are recalled and why some are not.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/vw-uk-no-dsg-recall-required

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/vw-uk-why-we-dont-need-dsg-recall
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #56 ·
To be honest I have very little faith in articles like that. I've been reading up on this for two years almost and VW regularly would say no recall for Australia then did an abrupt about face this year despite several customers complaining for years.

I don't buy the temperate country issue as Japan is the same pretty much as the Uk but got the recall. Same goes for Russia.

Singapore and Trinidad and Tobago are pretty much the same in terms of traffic and climate yet Singapore gets the recall.

Canada gets the hybrid jetta recalled but doesn't suffer from intense traffic or hot humid climate. Seems to be more about how strong a country's consumer protection laws are at this point. That and maybe statistics based on those autocar articles because VW UK seems to be saying not enough complaints are needed for a recall.

My gripe with stats on this issue is that the nature of the corrosion might just be slower under certain conditions and issues might pop up down the line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Discussion starter · #59 ·
After driving in city conditions such as stop start traffic or low speed limits with stopping or braking for turns etc the car judders/shakes when accelerating after from stop in gear 2 from speeds below 15 kph in normal mode. After about 20 min of driving in these conditions. More prominent after accelerating away from a speed hump or away from a slow corner uphill.

Feels like accelerating in a manual car with the gear selection too high a gear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#60 ·
Haven't seen this issue myself and I have just about 25,000 miles on my Hybrid. The Hybrid application of the DQ200 is a bit peculiar, however, in that when it's running in electric mode the clutch is always fully engaged. So, I suspect that the Hybrid slips the clutch less than when coupled with a traditional engine. In most cases, when accelerating in 2nd gear, the clutch is only slipped for a second as the engine is restarted. In some instances there will be what I believe an excessive slipping of the clutch in 2nd gear. It seems that rather than just downshifting to 1st gear the TCU just likes to hang onto 2nd. The other DSG applications do this, too (I've owned two), but it is more common in the DQ-200 for some reason. You'd think without the cooling and lubricating properties the wet-clutch versions of the DSG have, the DQ200 would slip the clutch less to avoid damage and clutch wear.
 
41 - 60 of 74 Posts
About this Discussion
73 Replies
9 Participants
Last post:
Pelican18TQA4
VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum
posts
85M
members
1.5M
Since
2001
A forum community dedicated to all Volkswagen owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, builds, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, new releases, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
The Car Lounge Golf IV & Jetta IV Golf III & Jetta III Golf II & Jetta II Golf IV/Jetta IV Parts