So, why can't Detroit build cars to compete with Europe and Japan?

Harpoon · Mar 26, 2016

82Turbo930 said:
So the paint is no longer peeling off GM cars? That's good. How about corrosion - rust through resistance? ... may be too early to tell. I used to be a hard core Chevy fan but blunder after blunder lost me for good I'm afraid. I love the performance on the new Camaros, it's the rest of the design that is foolish ... and they had plenty of time to fix it, but haven't ... I don't get it. In an ultra fast performance car, you should be able to be in total control, which is saying to clearly see your surroundings. In the Camaro, you are half blind driving the thing. :facepalm:

As a successful business venture, you cater to your customers and offer the products they want/need/demand. GM asked Camaro buyers if they would be willing to sacrifice style for better outward vision in the gen 6 and they said no, they wanted to keep the narrow windows and keep the look. It's not "GM is so stupid :facepalm: :screwy:

". It's that GM knows their client base and makes decisions accordingly.

AtlantaDad · Mar 26, 2016

82Turbo930 said:
I love the performance on the new Camaros, it's the rest of the design that is foolish ... and they had plenty of time to fix it, but haven't ... I don't get it. In an ultra fast performance car, you should be able to be in total control, which is saying to clearly see your surroundings. In the Camaro, you are half blind driving the thing. :facepalm:

That's ok. Nobody around here watches where they're going anyway.

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Maxvla · Mar 26, 2016

82Turbo930 said:
In an ultra fast performance car, you should be able to be in total control, which is saying to clearly see your surroundings.

Is this real life?

Since when do high performance cars have good visibility?

Gear_Cruncher · Mar 26, 2016

Harpoon said:
As a successful business venture, you cater to your customers and offer the products they want/need/demand. GM asked Camaro buyers if they would be willing to sacrifice style for better outward vision in the gen 6 and they said no, they wanted to keep the narrow windows and keep the look. It's not "GM is so stupid :facepalm: :screwy: ". It's that GM knows their client base and makes decisions accordingly.

So style > function and safety. That's exactly what I'm talking about. :facepalm: :facepalm: I think it was more like profit > redesign

... they didn't ask me by the way

surefooted · Mar 26, 2016

MK7_JSW · Mar 26, 2016

It's a balance act with the Germans, American and Japanese cars. No one brand has it all. Quality, reliability, styling, and fun to drive. German car build quality is great, fun to drive and interior trim is awesome but reliability has never been it's strong suit. American cars are a mixed bag, I've found some that are great all around interior, reliability is meh, and build quality ranging from atrocious to impeccable. The Japanese cars have typically been solid reliable cars but lately been lack luster design, not so fun to drive (the mainstream sellers at least) and interior design has been pretty precise but not German quality. The Japanese brands has been mainly riding on its cheap ownership experience with reliability, nothing more really. German has quality a day exclusivity on its side. The Americans not so sure, being a mixed bag kind of socks because they make great cars when their heart is poured into it like the vette but also has flops like the Cadillac Cimarron.

ZPayne · Mar 26, 2016

82Turbo930 said:
To further define and from personal experience:

The Japanese cars are easily more trouble free mechanically and functionally as far as engines, drive train, switches, gauges, glass, seals, front end components, brakes, suspension and body corrosion resistance goes.

The European cars are way better with interior materials, fit and finish and body rigidity.

The American cars are cheaper to purchase, so I suppose you can truly say you get what you pay for holds true.

The Japanese are only the most reliable because they are the least likely to innovate. Europeans and Americans are innovators, Many Asian cultures are analyzers. They wait for the competition to do something and then try to re-engineer the same design. Only Japanese manufacturer that isn't like this is Mazda. Kudos to them. For example, the European and American manufacturers have embraced small turbo engines in everyday cars for quite a few years now, and the new Civic is just finally getting a turbo. And isn't the Corolla drive-train/chassis like 10-15 years old at this point? Not hard to be reliable when you just stick with the tried and true. The 2JZ in my 2004 Lexus originally debuted in what? 1990? No wonder its so reliable. It is a great engine, but it only gets me 23 mpg in a 3200 lb car...

AtlantaDad · Mar 26, 2016

ZPayne said:
The Japanese are only the most reliable because they are the least likely to innovate. For example, the European and American manufacturers have embraced small turbo engines in everyday cars for quite a few years now, and the new Civic is just finally getting a turbo. And isn't the Corolla drive-train/chassis like 10-15 years old at this point? Not hard to be reliable when you just stick with the tried and true. The 2JZ in my 2004 Lexus originally debuted in what? 1990? No wonder its so reliable. It is a great engine, but it only gets me 23 mpg in a 3200 lb car...

And look how many appliances Toyota sells every year. Can you blame them?

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88c900t · Mar 26, 2016

Ryukein said:
I found this amazing footage of OP starting a thread

Fixed that for you:thumbup:

88c900t · Mar 26, 2016

ZPayne said:
The Japanese are only the most reliable because they are the least likely to innovate. Europeans and Americans are innovators, Many Asian cultures are analyzers. They wait for the competition to do something and then try to re-engineer the same design. Only Japanese manufacturer that isn't like this is Mazda. Kudos to them. For example, the European and American manufacturers have embraced small turbo engines in everyday cars for quite a few years now, and the new Civic is just finally getting a turbo. And isn't the Corolla drive-train/chassis like 10-15 years old at this point? Not hard to be reliable when you just stick with the tried and true. The 2JZ in my 2004 Lexus originally debuted in what? 1990? No wonder its so reliable. It is a great engine, but it only gets me 23 mpg in a 3200 lb car...

Nice ninja edit, and I agree about the IS300.

It's funny seeing the Japanese makes innovating the least :laugh: I think OP was asleep for the last 12 years.

Gear_Cruncher · Mar 26, 2016

ZPayne said:
The Japanese are only the most reliable because they are the least likely to innovate. For example, the European and American manufacturers have embraced small turbo engines in everyday cars for quite a few years now, and the new Civic is just finally getting a turbo. And isn't the Corolla drive-train/chassis like 10-15 years old at this point? Not hard to be reliable when you just stick with the tried and true. The 2JZ in my 2004 Lexus originally debuted in what? 1990? No wonder its so reliable. It is a great engine, but it only gets me 23 mpg in a 3200 lb car...

Are you kidding me? The Japanese learned by imitation in the 50s and 60s and then became master innovators from the early 70s on. That's what put them on the map!! ... as in coming out with new and unique designs that nobody else had even dreamed of. This is especially true in the motorcycle market through the 80s and 90s .... crazy stuff going on each year. By contrast, the Americans had the Harley which was basically the same since the early 1900s. The US auto industry sat on their fat butts doing little more than nothing which is how the Japanese got their automotive market share. People got tired of buying junk that didn't work.

The Americans embraced turbo engines for quite a few years ... well, the Buick V6 Gran National was a great design ... in a Grandpa kind of car. and the 80s Dodge had some K car turbos cars .... and a pickup truck which was kind of unique. However, the Japanese had turbo cars too, plenty of them. How about the turbo Hilux Toyota 4x4 trucks in the 80s, and the 1990 MR2 Turbo and then the wicked fast, totally over engineered Toyota Supra twin turbo ....

And there there was Mitubishi. I'm sorry, but Honda alone doesn't represent Japan.

Japan is all about innovation in everything they do, electronics, appliances, optics, cameras and automotive, probably more than any other nation on the Planet.

Air and water do mix · Mar 26, 2016

82Turbo930 said:
So style > function and safety. That's exactly what I'm talking about. :facepalm: :facepalm: I think it was more like profit > redesign

... they didn't ask me by the way

Really? They asked their client base. They wanted it to be stylish and they put that criterium above visibility. It's not a trade off I'd make, but they do. It's as simple as that. You can nitpick all you want, but the domestics are on a tear and the Europeans and the Japanese know it. Public perception is behind the times, as is yours.

You can nitpick the Germans or the Japanese just as easily if you want. Technical prowess is more important to German engineers than reliability, and their cars show it. That isn't wrong if that's what their customer base values (it is) but it's easily argued that reliability should trump doo-dads on your engine. What makes a BMW engine better than say, a Coyote or an LS?

The Japanese? Godzilla (GTR) had "glass transmissions" early on, as did the Mustang manual. Both were fixed and are now reliable, but which will you remember? Most of the time preconceived notions will dictate that. Honda totally blew it with the Civic in 2012 (or was it 2013?). Do they get a pass? What about Toyota's blunders with quality a few years ago? Nissan's continuing issues with design and interior quality? Mitsubishi? (Enough said.)

Gear_Cruncher · Mar 26, 2016

Air and water do mix said:
Really? They asked their client base. They wanted it to be stylish and they put that criterium above visibility. It's not a trade off I'd make, but they do. It's as simple as that. You can nitpick all you want, but the domestics are on a tear and the Europeans and the Japanese know it. Public perception is behind the times, as is yours.

You can nitpick the Germans or the Japanese just as easily if you want. Technical prowess is more important to German engineers than reliability, and their cars show it. That isn't wrong if that's what their customer base values (it is) but it's easily argued that reliability should trump doo-dads on your engine. What makes a BMW engine better than say, a Coyote or an LS?

The Japanese? Godzilla (GTR) had "glass transmissions" early on, as did the Mustang manual. Both were fixed and are now reliable, but which will you remember? Most of the time preconceived notions will dictate that. Honda totally blew it with the Civic in 2012 (or was it 2013?). Do they get a pass? What about Toyota's blunders with quality a few years ago? Nissan's continuing issues with design and interior quality? Mitsubishi? (Enough said.)

I agree, there are hit and misses with every manufacturer, but in my experience, I've noticed so many disappointing misses with the big three... and really it is disappointing, I'd love for them to be kicking butt like they used to back in the original muscle car days.

In a way they are again, but the European and Japanese cars are better ... the offset is the high price.

ZPayne · Mar 26, 2016

82Turbo930 said:
Are you kidding me? The Japanese learned by imitation in the 50s and 60s and then became master innovators from the early 70s on. That's what put them on the map!! ... as in coming out with new and unique designs that nobody else had even dreamed of. This is especially true in the motorcycle market through the 80s and 90s .... crazy stuff going on each year. By contrast, the Americans had the Harley which was basically the same since the early 1900s. The US auto industry sat on their fat butts doing little more than nothing which is how the Japanese got their automotive market share. People got tired of buying junk that didn't work.

The Americans embraced turbo engines for quite a few years ... well, the Buick V6 Gran National was a great design ... in a Grandpa kind of car. and the 80s Dodge had some K car turbos cars .... and a pickup truck which was kind of unique. However, the Japanese had turbo cars too, plenty of them. How about the turbo Hilux Toyota 4x4 trucks in the 80s, and the 1990 MR2 Turbo and then the wicked fast, totally over engineered Toyota Supra twin turbo .... And there there was Mitubishi. I'm sorry, but Honda alone doesn't represent Japan.

Japan is all about innovation in everything they do, electronics, appliances, optics, cameras and automotive, probably more than any other nation on the Planet.

I'm talking about today. We all know the Japanese Golden Era from the 1980's-early 2000's. Today, compared to the competition Japanese cars are behind American/European on power-train tech/scalable product architecture/design/etc. They became complacent and and are beaten on just about every aspect other than reliability by American/Euro autos. Honda seems to be turning it around, and Mazda is great. But the others, meh.

Peregrine · Mar 26, 2016

I get really tired of the union argument

Do you realize that European companies are heavily unionized. The power that they have makes US unions look like cub scout packs. Unlike the US where certain jobs are prevented from unionizing, in Europe every one unionizes. National labor laws are very strong in protecting unions. Also, European nations have national health services that are paid for in higher personal and corporate taxes.

MK7_JSW · Mar 26, 2016

ZPayne said:
I'm talking about today. We all know the Japanese Golden Era from the 1980's-early 2000's. Today, compared to the competition Japanese cars are behind American/European on power-train tech/scalable product architecture/design/etc. They became complacent and and are beaten on just about every aspect other than reliability by American/Euro autos. Honda seems to be turning it around, and Mazda is great. But the others, meh.

Mazda is now great once the Ford divorce happened, before that they made pretty much lackluster cars using ford components. Navajo, MPV, Tribute, need I say more? Besides the legendary RX7 and Miata models of yesteryear they have nothing really noteworthy until recent years.

GoFaster · Mar 26, 2016

Corrosion resistance? A friend of mine has a 2005 Chrysler 300, and there is not a speck of rust to be found. (Nor a squeak or rattle, and it has been stone-axe reliable.)

Paint problems? A lot of manufacturers had problems in the past with this. If you want thin paint, look at Subaru. If you want lack of corrosion resistance, Mazda has built many cars over the years that ended up being rust buckets. The Mercedes Sprinter is another notorious rust-bucket.

Among the ordinary cars for "everyman", there is little wrong with the Ford Fiesta/Focus/Fusion, pick the size that suits you.

The Chevrolet Volt was innovative. The second-generation one is even better. I'd take that over a Prius any day. They drive better, and on the new one, the interior is much better. The Volt has a very good reliability record, too. The upcoming Chevrolet Bolt will be the first all-electric car that is "good enough for most people". The Tesla Model 3 is likely to give it a run for its money. Both American brands.

It's BS that the "Detroit 3" can't build competitive cars. They can, and they do.

I will fully grant that this was not the case if you go back a few years. But it is now, and has been for a while.

Air and water do mix · Mar 26, 2016

82Turbo930 said:
I agree, there are hit and misses with every manufacturer, but in my experience, I've noticed so many disappointing misses with the big three... and really it is disappointing, I'd love for them to be kicking butt like they used to back in the original muscle car days. In a way they are again, but the European and Japanese cars are better ... the offset is the high price.

But you're picking and choosing with blinders on. There's nothing objectively better about the Corolla or Civic (the jury is out on the new Civic) than the Cruze or Focus. The Camry and Altima? Are they better than a Malibu or Fusion? (Honda gets the nod on the Accord, but I haven't driven it so I can't objectively say) What do the Germans offer in those segments that is better?

I can now go to a Cadillac dealer and get a car for a good price that is a superior drivers car to the equivalent BMW. The demerit is that whiney babies clamor over its gauges. Yeah, I have to really think about that. Would I rather pay more for a car with a "superior" badge and better gauges or get one that drives better? It's not even a close call. I'm taking the driver's car. Every single time.

Vision33r · Mar 26, 2016

50fridge said:
Are you serious?

Those are all designed and engineered outside of the US. Nice try.

Air and water do mix · Mar 26, 2016

MK7_JSW said:
Mazda is now great once the Ford divorce happened, before that they made pretty much lackluster cars using ford components. Navajo, MPV, Tribute, need I say more? Besides the legendary RX7 and Miata models of yesteryear they have nothing really noteworthy until recent years.

Mazdaspeed Protege, Milennia, 626, MX6 and MX3* would like a word with you.

*I could go on. Rotary pickup, RX2/RX3, GLC...

So, why can't Detroit build cars to compete with Europe and Japan?

Harpoon

AtlantaDad

Maxvla

Gear_Cruncher

surefooted

MK7_JSW

ZPayne

AtlantaDad

88c900t

88c900t

Gear_Cruncher

Air and water do mix

Gear_Cruncher

ZPayne

Peregrine

MK7_JSW

GoFaster

Air and water do mix

Vision33r

Air and water do mix

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