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So, why can't Detroit build cars to compete with Europe and Japan?

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#63 ·
Vision33r said:
Those are all designed and engineered outside of the US. Nice try.
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:rolleyes: Individual cars are designed all over the world now. As an example, when GM still had Saab, they had their engineers work on combustion chamber design, yet other parts of the head were designed elsewhere.

Also, what the hell difference does it make where they're designed? If it's a GM division, what does it matter if it's designed in the U.S., Germany, Australia or Korea? GM has engineering departments and staff in all of those places (and more), so it's their design no matter where it's supposedly designed.
 
#64 ·
Vision33r said:
Those are all designed and engineered outside of the US. Nice try.
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Could you be more specific??

The S550 Mustang is built in Flat Rock MI and it is the only vehicle using that platform. Yes, some design elements and some parts came from other global sources. (One of my customers here in Canada builds parts for those.) But the key design decisions came from Detroit. Prove me wrong.

Corvette is built in Bowling Green KY and it is also the only vehicle using that platform. The engine comes from Tonawanda NY. And yes, some bits and pieces come from outside the USA but again, the key design comes from GM HQ. Again, prove me wrong.

The Cadillac is the only one of those three that uses a global platform, but even at that, North America is the lead on that platform (Sigma).
 
#65 ·
Part of it comes down to base metals. The German cars typically have thicker metal and better base coat / dipping processing than the Japanese or American cars. My '02 Jetta has nicks down to the steel and I only have minor rust "pits" where on the Japanese cars of the same generation, the similar marks would be bigger dents and cancerous rust on the bodies.
 
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#66 ·
ZPayne said:
Europeans and Americans are innovators, Many Asian cultures are analyzers. They wait for the competition to do something and then try to re-engineer the same design
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Do you also have something to say about those uppity ****** and how women should stay in the kitchen?
 
#67 ·
GriffinMoss said:
Part of it comes down to base metals. The German cars typically have thicker metal and better base coat / dipping processing than the Japanese or American cars. My '02 Jetta has nicks down to the steel and I only have minor rust "pits" where on the Japanese cars of the same generation, the similar marks would be bigger dents and cancerous rust on the bodies.
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Based on my friend's 10 year old Chrysler 300, I think they have it figured out, too. I don't think I've ever seen one of these cars with gaping rust holes in it.

Another friend with a 2 year old Subaru Forester is complaining that it's showing rust spots already. Oops.
 
#68 ·
Disagree. The reputation of Japanese supremecy was based off of build quality and reliability, not tech (although they were ahead of the domestics on things like o erhead cams and overdrive gears)

82Turbo930 said:
Are you kidding me? The Japanese learned by imitation in the 50s and 60s and then became master innovators from the early 70s on. That's what put them on the map!! ... as in coming out with new and unique designs that nobody else had even dreamed of. This is especially true in the motorcycle market through the 80s and 90s .... crazy stuff going on each year. By contrast, the Americans had the Harley which was basically the same since the early 1900s. The US auto industry sat on their fat butts doing little more than nothing which is how the Japanese got their automotive market share. People got tired of buying junk that didn't work.

The Americans embraced turbo engines for quite a few years ... well, the Buick V6 Gran National was a great design ... in a Grandpa kind of car. and the 80s Dodge had some K car turbos cars .... and a pickup truck which was kind of unique. However, the Japanese had turbo cars too, plenty of them. How about the turbo Hilux Toyota 4x4 trucks in the 80s, and the 1990 MR2 Turbo and then the wicked fast, totally over engineered Toyota Supra twin turbo .... :eek: And there there was Mitubishi. I'm sorry, but Honda alone doesn't represent Japan.

Japan is all about innovation in everything they do, electronics, appliances, optics, cameras and automotive, probably more than any other nation on the Planet.
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#69 ·
GriffinMoss said:
Part of it comes down to base metals. The German cars typically have thicker metal and better base coat / dipping processing than the Japanese or American cars. My '02 Jetta has nicks down to the steel and I only have minor rust "pits" where on the Japanese cars of the same generation, the similar marks would be bigger dents and cancerous rust on the bodies.
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Mk4s have excellent rustproofing. In the old days, rustproofing was best from Swedish/ German cars, then domestics (heavier) than Japanese were worst.
 
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#70 ·
Kar98 said:
Do you also have something to say about those uppity ****** and how women should stay in the kitchen?
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Umm... what does that have to do with ZPaynes comment?:rolleyes:
 
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#72 ·
It is because North American liked to buy cheaply made North American cars. Remember GM/Ford Australia made car for Australia, GM/Ford Europe made car for European. We (North American) were ok and keep buying **** like Chevette, Tempo, Cavalier, Crown Victoria, Lincoln Town Car... for the last 30 years. Even "American luxury" was kind of cheap compare others but we still bought them.

Another possible reason may be North America had been enjoyed super low gasoline price for the last 30 years. (even now) This make the big 3 (North America division) put little R&D on small engines/hybrid/EV and made them not competitive in these area. North American LOVE big truck, pickup, SUV.. and the big 3 had been serving what WE WANT from the beginning of the automotive history...

Tell me what is the best selling vehicle in 2015 in USA??
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/10/the-5-best-selling-vehicles-in-america-in-2015.aspx
1) Ford F series (780k)
2) Chevy Silverado (600k)
3) RAM 1500-3500 (450k)

Look this way, American auto manufacturers are LEADERS selling pickup in North America. They are printing big $$ with F series/Silverado/RAM. You guys cannot stop buying these truck for the last 34 years!! In fact, NO European and Japanese brand can compete with them. If you are CEO of big 3, will you put more resource into these top 3 sellers or cars like Chrysler 200, Fusion or Cruze??
 
#73 ·
ZPayne said:
The Japanese are only the most reliable because they are the least likely to innovate. Europeans and Americans are innovators, Many Asian cultures are analyzers. They wait for the competition to do something and then try to re-engineer the same design. Only Japanese manufacturer that isn't like this is Mazda.
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This was not innovation?
Image
 
#74 ·
MK7_JSW said:
Mazda is now great once the Ford divorce happened, before that they made pretty much lackluster cars using ford components. Navajo, MPV, Tribute, need I say more?
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During the Ford era, Mazda also made the Mazda Protege / Mazda3, Mazda5, and Miata. Note that the Mazda3 and Mazda5 were based on the Ford Focus platform, so it is not like Ford components automatically made the car bad.
 
#75 ·
I'm not going to read 3 pages of poo-flinging, so I'll just add my 2c:

I think the reason that the Germans and Japanese are doing so much better is that post-WWII, they weren't really allowed to develop any sort of militaristic technology. As such, all of those engineers needed something to do, and in turn started making the best cars and motorcycles they could. At the same time, the US just continued with the arms race, and as a result the 'Big 3' had some of the most disgusting interiors up until pretty recently where they've started to even out again.

We built bombs, they built useful stuff.

I have no excuse for the Italians though. Beautiful cars? Absolutely. Will I buy one? Not unless I have an urge to burn money.. But then I'd likely get a boat anyway.
 
Discussion starter · #77 ·
GoFaster said:
Based on my friend's 10 year old Chrysler 300, I think they have it figured out, too. I don't think I've ever seen one of these cars with gaping rust holes in it.

Another friend with a 2 year old Subaru Forester is complaining that it's showing rust spots already. Oops.
Click to expand...

You would have to live in the rust belt to see the full impact of what calcium chloride, brine and salt does to steel. :(

I've only noticed gaping rust holes in pickup sheet metal ( and SUVs ) not so much sedans or coupes. Maybe the trucks get cheaper non treated steel compared to the cars.
And before someone brings up the Toyota frame problem, look at where the frames were manufactured ( hint* Not Japan ).
 
#80 ·
They sure can't build competitive high-end cars (forget Tesla, scheduled to fail anyway). But they still build the best large pick-ups and the best pony cars. It strange that the Camry/Accord have been the best sellers cars for 30+years.... should have not happened.
 
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