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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I thought I would share some recent experieinces with these 3 issues, what they have in common, and a simple cost effective remedy.

02M whining/grinding noise on deceleration, mostly 3rd gear, common to many 6 speed trannys found in MK4 1.8t's, 24V Vr6's, R32's. Not much of a problem on Mk5/Mk6 with 02Q, more about that later.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4947657-Gear-whine-on-decel-from-rear-of-car
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5138220-02M-Whining-noise
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4125648-3rd-Gear-Whine-on-Decel

Aftermarket clutch disengagement issues, or what has been referred to as "Clutch Creep", typically fixed with the NLS slave cylinder shim, but not always. Essentially, the clutch will refuse to disengage under some conditions preventing drivers from pulling the car out of gear, in some cases the car will lightly propel itself with the clutch pedal to the floor, drivers are unable to stop without shutting off the car and pulling it out of gear.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6062621-FI-with-After-Market-Clutch-and-clutch-creep-solutions


mainshaft axial play issues. The mainshaft has too much in and out play.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...and-forth-play&highlight=02m+input+shaft+play

What these issues have in common is a missing washer that goes between the mainshaft bearing snap ring and the case, which was mentioned halfway down the above link. I noticed that washer is installed in every MK5 02Q transmission but not in any of the 02M's I've serviced, which gave me a the idea to use it in noisy or axial play-ridden 02M's.

OEM part # WHT-001-976 is the shim
OEM part # 02M-301-211-B is the black cover that has to be removed to install it.

I have been installing this washer/shim in 02m's to correct the main shaft play and decel issues and its been working flawlessly as a quick permanent repair in every case.

It wasn't until yesterday afternoon that I realized it also fixes the clutch creep problem too! What was likely happening is the clutch disc was hitching a ride on the loose main shaft, which allowed it to drag on the flywheel under a condition where the main shaft bearing snap ring had "bottomed out" in the groove it cut in the case. This a must-do mod for anybody with an 02M transmission as a preventative or corrective measure.

On to the procedure...

The first step is to confirm you have the right transmission for this mod. Lift your car, turn your wheels all the way left, remove the drivers splash guard (if equipped) and look for the black cap:

If you see that black cap, remove the wheel for easy access.

You will need the parts listed above, the shim/washer and a new sealing cap (do not reuse the old one, it will get deformed upon removal)

Required tools are pretty common:



I would say the soft-face hammer, medium flat blade screw driver and pick tools are all that's needed but some may be more comfortable with using snap ring pliers. To each their own.

Video of the procedure in full:


jeff.
 

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I'd like to build on Satch's post a little bit, and create a single thread that should really help a lot of folks diagnose these issues.

Not all clutch creep or clutch drag issues on 02M are caused by the excess axial play of the input shaft.

In cases where Aftermarket clutches (stage 2+) are used, the 02M slave cylinder may not generate enough hydraulic force to fully disengage the pressure plate from the friction disk. Enter the NLS shim kit. That kit essentially shortens the amount of extension required to fully disengage the pressure plate.

Obviously not all clutch kits are built the same, and not all slave cylinders are the same, so it is impossible to say that all of them will suffer from this deficiency, but it is a good recommendation when upgrading or replacing, to go ahead and add the NLS (Nothing Leaves Stock) shim kit to your purchase.

(I am not associated with NLS, they are just the only vendor I know of that sells this kit)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Duly noted, and a great addition to any clutch job for insurance.
If, however, one is experiencing clutch creep without having done either mod, the mainshaft repair doesn't require transmission removal and is the best first choice among all options in my opinion.

NLS shims aren't a cure all either.

The last tranny I fixed was for a friend with a big turbo R32, FX400 clutch, and NLS shim to remedy creep. He had a 2nd clutch put in under the assumption it would fix it to no avail; mainshaft shim was the real winner in that case, but who knows what the results would have been if he didn't already have the NLS piece...
 

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I have the ERR trans code in a 2002 new beetle turbo s; in this earlier version, there is no "cap" and thus, no access. I am assuming; because of the lack of a cap, the axial play issue, is not a problem? Can anyone confirm this; or is the play, still a issue but requires removal of the transmission and some sort of shim, modification of the case? :confused: Any info or input appreciated! Thanks! :)

PS: I am dealing with the same issues; as everyone else, I have a Southbend SMF "silent" kit, Stage 2, Endurance.
 

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rstolz, can you expound on the statement: "the 02M slave cylinder may not generate enough hydraulic force to fully disengage the pressure plate from the friction disk." What exactly; is wrong with the stock/oem setup? I know that it is made of plastic; is it not robust enough (pressure wise), engineered for the lighter pedal pressure of the stock p/plate or is there something inherently inferior about it, compared to the earlier metal ones of the past? I know; that depending on the thermal temps of my car and weather; it does seem to affect the clutch problem (this could factor into your; hydraulic weakness explanation). Again, any info appreciated! :)
 

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The Issue, with some detail:

It amounts to the bore of the piston in the slave and master, and the materials used in construction. You understand the basics, so when you press the pedal, it pushed a cylinder, which forces fluid in the lines forward, which eventually pushed on the piston in the slave, that piston activates the clutch.

It can only exert as much force is put into it, and it's asked to exert quite a bit as that one little piston is asked to compress the entire PP. So there is a finite amount of pressure (force) available from the system. Go over that, and you start to have issues.

The farther a hydraulic piston is extended the less force it has at point of contact. So if it starts out at 100psi it may end up with only 40psi at the end of its stroke (those are completely random numbers, but you get the point). Also, hoses flex, reducing the forward potential as fluid starts to expand outward instead of forward. hydraulic fluid is compressible as well, not nearly as much as water, but it is, so that factors in as well as you approach limits. Colder weather means stiffer fluid, stiffer fluid offers less compression. Again this is rather small and only factors in near limits.

Now we get to the crux. The system was engineered to handle the stock clutch system, and not much more. That means stock PP clamp force and friction disk thickness. If you put a PP with 1.5x clamping force and a friction disk that's 0.1mm thicker, you need that much more force and stroke to fully actuate the clutch.

If you try to push the pedal in that scenario, the PP will depress to a yield point, at which either the fluid is maxxed out, the hoses are flexing and allowing too much outward pressure, or the piston has just extended too far and no longer has enough force behind it to continue pushing the PP.

Rubber hoses flex, plastic housings on the slave/master are pretty rigid, and any flex you get from them is negligible.

How to fix:
1. SS clutch lines take a significant amount of flex out of the clutch lines, allowing more force to be applied to the slave.

2. Shim kit. This basically shortens the amount of extension needed to actuate the PP, which means there is more force available at the point of full PP extension (compression).

3. The root problem is the bore and/or stroke of the master cylinder is too small. increase either of those and the potential force dramatically increases. To my knowledge no one has done this yet, as the shim kit is much cheaper and, is equally as effective.


Way longer post than I normally like, but there it is, my take on hydraulic clutch
 

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Thank you for your reply; my thinking, is that the hydraulic issue... (if I am understanding you correctly) is at the core of the problem! A long term and permanent fix; should be centered around the addressing the hydraulics that create the pressure (in this case, the master cylinder). I was wondering; if long term... the shim solution, would end up not being a effective and permanent fix; as clutch components wear (decreasing the added "amount of extension" for the p/plate to disengage) and end up with the same problem, again?! I have bought the shim kit and have yet to install it; I was concerned, the more I thought about the problem, whether or not it was a solid; long term, permanent solution to the problem. After hearing your take on things and seeing how the shims have been out for not a terribly long time; not enough, to hear about a scenario, where the clutch assembly wears allot. Now, I can see why many who installed the shims have a initial solution to the problem but maybe a explanation why is doesn't fix "all" of everyone's problems; of course, it is hard to know, a bunch of other potential factors that people are dealing with (not correctly bleeding clutch system, internal hard part trans issues, clutch hose, various clutch brands, etc. etc.) I see a potential weakness with the shims; as it isn't addressing the lack of hydraulic pressure, the core problem! :mad: What do you think? Do you think; the shim will lose its effectiveness over the life cycle of the clutch and other components; as they wear? If this is the case; then, I would like to deal with the hydraulics specifically and not have to worry about the problem ever again. As I am learning; it seems, that when you add aftermarket parts, you have improve all the other parts related to it. As with these clutches; the original part, is not engineered to deal with the added requirements of the non stock part and as many may argue, even the stock clutch was not effectively served by the stock clutch master cylinder. Let me know what you think! Thanks! :p
 

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I've had the same thought, but I haven't seen any reports of failure I would link to the shim. I would say the only failure you'd likely see is internal seal failure of the master or slave. And there is little you can do about that. There is also no way to really link a failed seal to a shim kit.

Those cylinders just fail, whether metal, OEM, or Aftermarket; it's a relatively common fail point on any car with a hydraulic clutch. That's one reason why they aren't terribly expensive to replace... except on the 02M, where you have to drop the trans, but even then, the part itself isnt so bad.

SS lines and the shim are about the best solutions. even if someone came out with a bigger bore/longer stroke master, I might still suggest the shim first.
 

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I already installed a steel braided line for the hydraulics (when I installed the clutch) but I haven't installed the shims yet; the installed upgraded hose by itself, definitely... does not fix the problem. Still need to pull the trans; fix some other things and install the shims, as well.
 

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Ok So I have another question. I had a Stock clutch on a Four season tuning 16.5 Steel billet Single mass flywheel. I had clutch creep/engagement issues. exact same symptoms the turbo guys were having with their higher rated clutches.

So i go to instlal my supercharger and proceed with my build. I remove my stock 02M with 150 or so K on it and i notice that the shaft in and out play is about 1 inch total. I went and ordered a DRP 02M to replace the stock GQV 02M.

Are these Shims you speak of for the main shaft specific to the GQV boxes ( not having them ) because my gently used DRP main shaft DOES NOT move at all in and out like the GQV did.

I also have a spare 40K 02M GQV and it has minimal shaft play in and out compared to my 150k original trans. Any input is appreciated.
 

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The older versions of the 02M did not have the shims, which resulted in the shaft essentially slowly boring itself a biggerhole to sit in. that larger hole is where the play comes from. Newer versions had this corrected and came stock with said shims to alleviate the issue.

I do not know when specifically that change happened.

But it stands to reason that a trnas with heavy use would have more than a lightly used one.
 

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rstolz, so, the "boring out"; happens, on the earlier transmissions as well; because, there was too much play from the factory or for some other reason that I am not, understanding? I guess; I am not clear, as to where all this play comes from, all of the sudden or what inherent weakness, causes this to happen in the first place? I replaced all the bearings in the transmission; so, my bearings are essentially new but like I said, I did not check the play or pay special attention to it. I have 70k on my trans; with essentially new parts (bearings, 1st/2nd gear syncros, seals, repinned original shifter forks etc.). If/when I pull it out again; I certainly will check it. Would one; modify the case; like, the other newer 02M threads with the plastic cap, to make sure the bearing doesn't move (drill, tap; install something to restrict movement of the bearing outer shell/race?) I appreciate you; listening to all my questions, I just am trying to understand where any and all possible solutions to our problems, may lie! Thanks! :)

My trans is 2WD: ERR trans code.
 

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rstolz didnt comment n the difference models of 02M.... is this problem specific to a GQV becuase my DRP is from a 2003 4motion Golf ( europe ) my 2004 R32 has a GQV from a newer car with the problem.

its good info and i appreciate the feedback
 

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it gets tricky when talking trans models and car models, and I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the 02M to comment accurately.

I will say this though:
The first year for a GQV may be be from 2002, where the first year for a DRP may be 2003. So even though YOUR GQV came from a '04 model car, that trans model may be an older version than the DRP. Confusing enough for you?

To find out for sure you'd have to track the release of each 02M trans model, independent of what model and model year car it was used with.
 

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it gets tricky when talking trans models and car models, and I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the 02M to comment accurately.

I will say this though:
The first year for a GQV may be be from 2002, where the first year for a DRP may be 2003. So even though YOUR GQV came from a '04 model car, that trans model may be an older version than the DRP. Confusing enough for you?

To find out for sure you'd have to track the release of each 02M trans model, independent of what model and model year car it was used with.
Im not trying to mess with u, JS... the DRP has a different bearing on the main shasft, so internals are slightly different. im just tyring to see if this was the GQV specific. most everyone with the issue uses a GQV, so ill just shutup about it, lol
 

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oh no offense taken at all, the more this stuff gets talked about, the more I get to learn.

If we can identify exactly which trans models have the issue, we can start to map which other versions are likely to see the same issue, and which ones are not.

My only point was that you can't base it solely on the model year of the car. :thumbup:
 

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I have had this clutch creep issue for several months now. I just received the shim and cap from VW today and will post the results after the install. Thanks for posting up this information. I really wasn't looking forward to pulling the trans again this quickly.
 
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