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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I thought I would share some recent experieinces with these 3 issues, what they have in common, and a simple cost effective remedy.

02M whining/grinding noise on deceleration, mostly 3rd gear, common to many 6 speed trannys found in MK4 1.8t's, 24V Vr6's, R32's. Not much of a problem on Mk5/Mk6 with 02Q, more about that later.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4947657-Gear-whine-on-decel-from-rear-of-car
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5138220-02M-Whining-noise
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4125648-3rd-Gear-Whine-on-Decel

Aftermarket clutch disengagement issues, or what has been referred to as "Clutch Creep", typically fixed with the NLS slave cylinder shim, but not always. Essentially, the clutch will refuse to disengage under some conditions preventing drivers from pulling the car out of gear, in some cases the car will lightly propel itself with the clutch pedal to the floor, drivers are unable to stop without shutting off the car and pulling it out of gear.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6062621-FI-with-After-Market-Clutch-and-clutch-creep-solutions


mainshaft axial play issues. The mainshaft has too much in and out play.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...and-forth-play&highlight=02m+input+shaft+play

What these issues have in common is a missing washer that goes between the mainshaft bearing snap ring and the case, which was mentioned halfway down the above link. I noticed that washer is installed in every MK5 02Q transmission but not in any of the 02M's I've serviced, which gave me a the idea to use it in noisy or axial play-ridden 02M's.

OEM part # WHT-001-976 is the shim
OEM part # 02M-301-211-B is the black cover that has to be removed to install it.

I have been installing this washer/shim in 02m's to correct the main shaft play and decel issues and its been working flawlessly as a quick permanent repair in every case.

It wasn't until yesterday afternoon that I realized it also fixes the clutch creep problem too! What was likely happening is the clutch disc was hitching a ride on the loose main shaft, which allowed it to drag on the flywheel under a condition where the main shaft bearing snap ring had "bottomed out" in the groove it cut in the case. This a must-do mod for anybody with an 02M transmission as a preventative or corrective measure.

On to the procedure...

The first step is to confirm you have the right transmission for this mod. Lift your car, turn your wheels all the way left, remove the drivers splash guard (if equipped) and look for the black cap:

If you see that black cap, remove the wheel for easy access.

You will need the parts listed above, the shim/washer and a new sealing cap (do not reuse the old one, it will get deformed upon removal)

Required tools are pretty common:



I would say the soft-face hammer, medium flat blade screw driver and pick tools are all that's needed but some may be more comfortable with using snap ring pliers. To each their own.

Video of the procedure in full:


jeff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Duly noted, and a great addition to any clutch job for insurance.
If, however, one is experiencing clutch creep without having done either mod, the mainshaft repair doesn't require transmission removal and is the best first choice among all options in my opinion.

NLS shims aren't a cure all either.

The last tranny I fixed was for a friend with a big turbo R32, FX400 clutch, and NLS shim to remedy creep. He had a 2nd clutch put in under the assumption it would fix it to no avail; mainshaft shim was the real winner in that case, but who knows what the results would have been if he didn't already have the NLS piece...
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Glad to hear this is working for others as it has worked for me. I've since performed this on a few more 02M boxes and it works wonderfully in every case.

I will post a pictorial DIY in a few days for those who are a little nervous about doing this on their own.

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
satchimo, are you seeing this; on the earlier 02M's that DO NOT; have the external cover and would thus, require a trans pull, for this issue? Any info; appreciated! Thanks! :)
I'm afraid that's correct. Early/mid '03 and earlier 6 speed boxes do not have the black access cover and do not make use of the parts listed. It's entirely possible that there are clutch kits out there for 6 speeds that have poor design and require a little help in the form of the NLS shim. However, upon removal of your transmission to add the NLS shim (assuming that is your next plan of attack) check the mainshaft play at that point and see if it needs to be rebuilt. I just rebuilt an early 1.8t box (ironically code is FML) last week with bad mainshaft bearing scoring and about 1/16" axial play, so it does happen. Those early boxes use upper and lower taper roller bearings for the mains
haft instead of the later ball bearing and needle bearing in these later boxes.

Let me know if you need any part numbers or the parts themselves, I work for a company that can supply all this stuff.

keep us posted with your findings

jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
\ I am still; of the thought, that without a hydraulic master cylinder upgrade, we are going to continue to see this issue... until a "true" upgrade that deals with the core problem (hydraulic pressure is insufficient in stock form) is created by someone or implemented, some how.
I have never suspected the master-slave system to be at fault with the clutch creep issue, especially if the slave has been replaced and bled thoroughly. Properly bled hydraulic clutches are the best method of compressing the springs on a pressure plate; brake fluid is considered "incompressible" so long as there is no air or water in the system. They are also self adjusting, so long as there's sufficient fluid in the reservoir and a clean clutch master.

I use a pressure bleeder on every bleed job, and sometimes have to rebleed after a day or so on the odd job (irregular pedal height) but I have never encountered a clutch creep problem that was caused by "insufficient hydraulic pressure" yet.

jeff

afterthought:

The reason I believe the slave cylinders are more than capable and have sufficient travel to compress the pressure plate fingers is due to the fact that when installing these transmissions, I always have to push the box against the motor and hold it there while installing the bellhousing bolts. This is because of the spring loaded counterforce of the fully extended slave cylinder making contact with the pressure plate, which indicates the slave's travel exceeds the requirement to compress the pressure plate.

I suppose if one finds themselves in a situation where they don't feel "spring kickback" they are using a binding slave or have some other clutch issue. Always check the slave for good movement and travel, as some appear to be crooked and cocked sideways out of the box.

jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Sounds like I will be doing this whenever I will be doing this soon. Would love to see that DIY with plenty of pics.... Haha
I will be performing this on 2 cars this weekend, both R32's. I will take a video of the excessive play, which I'm certain exists in at least 1 of the boxes.

pics and media will be added to the original post in this thread, "stay tuned..."

jeff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
For those struggling with removing bearing races from the cases, I typically will use heat from a propane torch or MAP gas, just enough to expand the aluminum around the race(s) and slam the case upside down on a plank of wood. They usually all fall out with little effort.

I work on these all the time, and have several pics focusing on internal damage to show customers (lots of carnage pics), but if I find some that could be helpful to people on this thread I'll post up a few.

jeff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
@514:

For kicks, change the shim first. I'm curious to see how well the shim performs on its own.
Of course, if your slave is pooched there's really nothing you can do outside of pulling the transmission, but excess play in the main shaft has a huge affect on how the clutch disengages.

Good luck, report back and keep us posted with your results

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
For the record, after replacing dozens of 02M clutches (Spec, Soutbend/DXD, OEM, Clutch Masters) I haven't found it necessary to use the NLS slave shim on any occasion.

The only thing I've ever used to fix clutch creep specifically has been the addition of the main shaft shim. This is not to say the NLS piece is not worthwhile, I just haven't found a clutch/slave issue yet which requires that sort of thing. Clearly, preventing the main shaft from "walking" (and dragging the clutch disc with it) by installing the main shaft shim works, as several users on this thread have expressed, and they performed the fix in "around 15 minutes".

The verdict is still out there on whether or not it actually fixes anything or if it's just another temporary patch-up that will end in disappointments and tears, so we need some data on implementing this fix alone to correct the problem. I believe it will work in every case.

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
Hello Jeff,

I will change the shim first and report back. (I am impatiently waiting for parts to arrive)

In the numerous jobs uve done have you have you ever had a clutch not disengage at all and then install the shim to see results?

In the below thread many people report of clutches not engaging to varying degrees:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5501345-02m-Clutch-Issues-(heavy-pic-content)

FYI. Weather here is below freezing and I daily drive in winter. When I first installed the clutch I had creeping and sporadic clutch not disengaging. In the last weeks it was getting worse and worse.

Thanks,
I'm trying to wrap my head around your current situation, regarding clutch not disengaging. I gather that if you start the car in gear, clutch pedal to the floor, the car propels itself as though you have not pressed the pedal?

Or does it drag slightly and propel itself?

Or do you press the pedal and it sticks to the floor?

In my experience, if the pedal has resistance and it feels right, though the clutch wont disengage, either your clutch disc has separated and looks like pulled pork or the pressure plate has broken.
In any event, I would still start with the simplest and cheapest repair which is the mainshaft shim and cap.

jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Well, I haven't yet seen this problem on those early dual taper roller bearing mainshaft boxes, so I can only speculate at this point. My experience, and this thread, is focused mainly on the later 02M's from '04 and up with open end cap design and access to the ball and cage bearing.

The first question I have is whether or not there was play or bad bearings in any shafts prior to or after the rebuild, and whether all bearing preloads were taken seriously. If all checks out OK, then it could be non compliant gear oil or possibly a bad flywheel. Gear oil should be VW GL4 spec OEM part G 052 171 A2. Use it.

Are you using a Clio conversion flywheel?
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 · (Edited)
Here's the problem in a nutshell:

The play that's notorious in the later boxes is axial, or "in and out". The main shaft and it's bearing literally slides back and forth in a reciprocating motion that is detected when you tug on it and push it back in. Slight play (1mm/.040") isn't a huge problem but once it gets to certain point of wear (2+mm/.125") its assumed it makes contact with the 1st/2nd/3rd pinion shaft and continues to spin through friction from that contact, independent of the clutch disengagement.

A more realistic theory is that the clutch disc hitches a ride with the reciprocating shaft and bounces back and forth between the gap of a disengaged clutch, skimming either the flywheel or pressure plate, depending on where the shaft ends up after accel or decel. This is obviously a bad thing, and I think it's the best explanation so far due to the fact that it explains the issue perfectly when at a standstill, (ie pinion shafts aren't spinning, therefore could not spin the main shaft)

Seeing as the gears are helical gears there is a repeated reciprocating motion upon accel and decel, with the helix forcing the main shaft from one end of play to other end. This obviously gets worse and worse unless this play is arrested, because what is actually happening is the rear shaft ball bearing, complete with retainer snap ring, starts to machine the case.

In your case, there is no bearing that behaves like that when worn. Your 02M has upper and lower taper roller bearings that sandwich the main shaft between the 2 case halves. Any play in that style of bearing fixture means big trouble, because you have more than just "in and out play" but also radial or "side to side" play and lots of slop in the whole thing. That play, if present, can be fixed by placing graduated OEM shims behind the bearing race(s) to remove that play, until a specified "preload" on the bearings has been achieved. This can only be done on your early box with the tranny removed and case split apart.

There are a few potential causes for that sticky gear condition, so it's important to rule out the common sense stuff like gear oil and clutch hardware etc. I once had a customer upgrade to a 6 speed and when he installed the shift box he bent the end of the shift cables ever so slightly that the kinked cable ends got stuck in the sheathing trying to engage 1st2nd and especially reverse.

It is entirely possible that your setup, "Heinz 57" with conversion flywheel, adapter plate, aftermarket clutch, aftermarket slave and whatever you used for a clutch master has some kind of interchange issue. You may require a different fix that's being sold on this forum, the NLS slave cylinder shim. Some people swear by it...

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #90 ·
Quick question

Won't that shim pull the other bearing on the clutch housing away from the race?
I can't remember what type of bearing it uses on the clutch housing and which way it faces but from what I remember it's a conical bearing race, and that shim pulling the shaft towards the case will space out the other bearing
Actually, the bearing on the bell housing side is a needle bearing that supports the shaft radially. The main support is from the rear bearing which isnt taper roller but a ball bearing that holds the shaft in place as a radial and thrust bearing. Of course, it's only as effective as its mounting and fixture will provide, which is where the shim/washer comes into play. The washer essentially puts the bearing in its proper factory position and keeps it there. Not a re engineer, just a retro fit from newer transmissions that use that piece for the same purpose.

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #91 ·
My question(s) are why didnt I notice the sound before? Does it have something to do with me changing from a stage one kit to an oem kit? Also if this is the bearing will the shim keep me in the green or is this trans a ticking timebomb?
I think the sound you're hearing is the notorious "lightweight flywheel gear chatter", very common to 6 speeds. I've personally noticed the Autotech aluminum one to be the worst offender, and coincidently just removed one last week for a customer who had the same concerns as you. It just annoyed him to the point where he had to have it out.

It's possible the mainshaft washer might make it a little less noisy, especially if you have excessive play to begin with.

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #145 ·
I'll work on it. I have such a tranny on a project car now, significant whining in all gears that increases with rpm and is lineaer with input shaft speed. I'll strip I'd down, take measurements and replace what is out of whack. What else can be done? If it has some preload issues that gets dealt with and should be fine.

Obviously the later 02M box was designed to allow for a significant degree of movement in the main shaft and still remotely function. Whether or not the end cap main bearing is supposed to be pressed into the case securely and immoveable is another story altogether. I have in my possession an R32 crate tranny which has the common end cap and obviously no shim will be present, like all other 02M's. I'll pop the cap and check for play and see if that bearing is a tight fit in the hole.

I'll get back to you all with good data this week.

Cheers
Jeff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #148 ·
Sorry, not yet. I need to get through a number of other things before I dedicate my work bench to RnD. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is some sintering of the gears which results in the same noise, but a tear down will confirm. I'll have something in the next month I think.

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #150 ·
Ok, you have the 02Q transmission. I can only guess as to whether or not the MK6 has the washer/spacer installed from factory, but I believe I heard somewhere that the washer was introduced to the MK5 02Q transmission, but it's hit or miss with the 02Q boxes found in the MK6.

Either way, it's worth a look and takes very little time to do. I suspect that your clutch creep is like 99% of others' and your transmission is missing that washer.

Jeff.
 
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