VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum banner
1 - 20 of 123 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Have an 80 pickup I recently did an engine//trans swap into. Has the 1.6D NA. Pretty sure the engine is actually an early Mk2 since it's a hydraulic head but my Q should be rather universal.
Timing is set to 1mm...pump is off the shelf used from the parts bin but the timing plunger is free but a recent test drive has me questioning the vane pump health. Truck has a 2-tank conversion...tank currently has only 4-5gal of straight diesel & a lift pump...this helped as before I couldn't get above 50mph before I could feel it losing power.

Pump timing is set right @ 1mm. On test drive that got up to ~65mph my temp climbed to ~220+ on the open flat. This is not in keeping with the previous motor's (early 11mm head) behavior...which still ran but was a bit gutless even for these already gutless motors...just needed a head gasket but the trans had stuck in 5th. Could 1mm timing be too much?

Also my parts bin includes 8-9 other IPs. A couple were already in pieces so was able to get a feel for how they go together while video's filled in the small bits not known. Pretty simple. My other Questions are what the (dis)advantage of the different shims between plunger head & cam plate? As I do have some variety here. Also when piecing the disassembled heads back together I discovered I have at least a couple different sized plungers//heads as one would fit one but wouldn't even start in the other. Benefits of the smaller compared to larger?

I realize some of these IPs could likely do w/ proper rebuilds to replace parts worn way out of spec. I do have dial gauges (would just need to set up jigs) and a mics (though SAE on the latter). But cleaning & basic reseal works too.

I'm after economy primarily & at least reasonable power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,442 Posts
I normally timed all of my 1.6Ds to 1mm.

I’ve swapped IP internals and externals, but I honestly had no clue what I was doing lol. TDI camplate and rotary head on a 1.6 IP, different delivery valves, etc.. I remember Giles telling me swapping DVs would change timing.

I don’t know where this current IP is timed to, I just got the engine running and timed it by ear. It runs, so that’s good enough for me!

If you can erase all it, why not. Maybe you’ll see something awry, when you open it. I’m curious if you have actual specs on the pump…. most of us just do a reseal and call it good.

-Todd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
I'm in the same boat as most other DIY. If I happened to be working on one & something was clearly way out then I would probably consider replacement of the part...maybe.
So far when doing timing adjust (1st time on one of these as was 1st time I had to install a pump)...for a period of time I couldn't get it to start at all until I realized I was using the mark someone made @ 10 ATDC as my TDC for the pump timing...threw it WAY off. Cam//crank was synced proper though. On the distributor heads so long as they were complete I'd be leaving them alone component wise & keep everything together. Have seen in other places where there is mention of different size plungers...larger ones I assume deliver more? Same goes for the little disc shims. Seen them listed as 2.5, 2.6, 2.7mm etc. All I know is that the thicker ones the plunger would likely move deeper into the dist head?

My issue with this one is no power beyond 60 mph...can feel that faint surge...and the unexplained temp rise which NORMALLY happens if fuel is turned up too much. Pump on the truck I haven't touched. Even the others that I have the seal kits for (came with the parts pile) I have no intention of touching the fuel screw on top which engages to the governor. The 1st one I did...getting it ready, I got the top back on with the screw in place...just tricky doing it. Would be nice if timing could be adjusted w/o having to always loosen the lines so the pump can turn w/o binding them & not have to bleed everything after each attempt.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,442 Posts
Have seen in other places where there is mention of different size plungers...larger ones I assume deliver more? Same goes for the little disc shims. Seen them listed as 2.5, 2.6, 2.7mm etc.
That’s where the different sized heads come in. Bigger number is more fuel. Your ip is 9mm. With my TDI head it’s now 10mm… do I need it… no, but why not…? At one point, I was running DVs from a 12mm 4BT, but it was way too much.

The discs, I’m unsure of when you’d use whichever, which is why I asked if you had actual ip specs. Bosch didn’t put that much out there regarding these. VWdiesel.net caters to the idi crowd.

I always shim the governor. Some say don’t, but I do and love it.

-Todd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
The shim disc...in all the breakdowns (videos included) they were present. I suppose possibly so the plunger aside from the engagement pin, doesn't directly contact the cam plate.
Nope. Don't have any IP specs. What comes out during the cleaning//reseal goes back where it came from. Not exactly sure what is meant by shimming the governor.
Can see having too-large DV's being an issue...ones from 4BT are meant to feed cylinders each almost as large as any 2 combined cylinders in the VW.

Still have that high temp issue. What pump issues might cause this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,013 Posts
Temp issue:
How's the coolant flowing into the reservoir
through the small line coming from the radiator.
Pull the cap and look for a steady stream.

Now this seems to be the most difficult question to answer:
Do you have clear fuel lines to and from the pump?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Part of my fuel lining is clear...sections of ~3/8 OD x 1/8 ID (a couple feet worth came with the truck when I got it as part of the strictly diesel fuel system at the time) shoved an inch deep into 3/8 fuel hose connected to switch solenoids. On both inlet & pump outlet. These joints I know don't leak...but since I swapped positions of my 2-tank switcharoo solenoids to do away with the criss-crossing supply//return near the TB (don't have an upper timing cover)...wouldn't be surprised if 1 of the 6 or so clamped connections on the supply side might be sucking air intermittently despite being "tight". Was seeing some bubbles @ idle even w/ the bed tank (has only diesel atm) pump running. Can't find any local clear tubing of the correct size. Might have to hit up United States Plastic Corp where I used to get my barrel screens...THEY have it for certain.
Am wondering however on the internal health of the pump...off the shelf throw it on. A previous pump attached to a prior swap attempt that USED to run that I 1st tried...which ran like **** turned out to be gummed...so wondering now if the current one might be too. I have a freshly re-sealed & ATF primed pump on hand & ready to go.

Will double check the coolant flow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,013 Posts
Yep.
1/4" ID vinyl tubing works great.
2ft from the filter to the pump and at least 3 ft from the pump to the return to tank pipe.
The 1/8" ID tubing might be your problem if that is on your supply line.
Not sure from your description where it's at.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,366 Posts
Not that knowledgeable about the VW diesel, but with the Mercedes diesels, any air is no good. Some mechanics say it's ok, it really is not. Normally if is is sucking air, there is a leak but rarely did I see fuel drip out of the part. The hole is small enough to suck air, but not push fuel out of it.

I think it was mentioned already, but your spinning your wheels until you get this resolved. It's that important.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The 1/8th ID tubing...more than likely 3/16....has been in use since I got the truck w/ no problems prior. Just looks 1/8 with some of the piece s I have left which over time the line has become brittle & doesn't like flexing too much anymore.

Just frustrated to no end spending what free time I have been able to give it over the past 3 months trying to this thing back on the road. Motor//trans I had in it (see image) ran fine but the early 1.6 had developed that famous driver's front corner leak near the oil passage...but it was the trans jamming into 5th & refusing to come out is what started this. Setback after setback to follow.
First whole engine//trans (a good runner pulled form a project truck) swap I did would've been just fine had a (only recently discovered to be) fouled-from-sitting IP hadn't thrown a wrench in the works. Finally had it in...started it up...ran like <CENSORED> then when going back to make sure I the IP wasn't off a tooth or 2 I had reset the timing...only to leave the pin the pump in a pre-40s CRS moment. Took 2 days & countless TB resets & hand cranking before realizing I had ruined #2 intake (bent valve). On that disassembly discovered it was an 11mm head instead of the 12mm I original thought which meant the eventual retro-fit turbo would be out of the Q. So had an early Mk2 1.6 NA hyd head engine (long block minus IP) that whomever had worked on previously put stuff together WAY too tight. Felt like I was going to strip the block just pulling the head bolts. New rings & rods...couldn't do the mains since couldn't get the crank bolt out to remove the main seal covers to get a socket on the end cap bolts but they were still reasonably healthy. Installed the pump from previous motor attempt...still <CENSORED> running only to realize said pump fouled from sitting & not being run for 2 yrs.

IP now on motor will run but either due to bubbles or weak vane pump...it won't get over 50mph w/o lift pump assist. MAIN concern was the unexplained temp rise.
Motor vehicle Electrical wiring Gas Wire Auto part


Image is from BEFORE the current mess...just after the messy 2-tank gear was installed. Image is the dry-fit before the hose clamps went on all the barbs. Ran fine...no air in system despite the shove-in connections for 1-1/2 yrs...then the now. The hose routing has been improved now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Think I MIGHT have found the temp culprit. For the failed engine swap I had pulled the working T-stat from the pictured motor & moved it over to El-Smacko-Valvo. But the motor NOW in the truck (hyd head) still had it's old one that came with it. Thought I had changed them out. Change over is correct now. Fan kicks on when I jump the leads so it's getting power & never changed the switch which was working before all this.

Fuel. Made sure all the supply-side clamps @ solenoids were tight...they were but gave them a 1/8 turn to be sure. When checking (dark out so had to use a drop light) the clamped connections I saw what looks like a little wet on the supply side of the truck's onboard fuel filter. Looked a little wet. Clamp was one of those old non-perforated clamps types sometimes found on these things. This one was a little too long to begin with. Changed out for a small clamp & made good & tight. Clamped the clear line where it goes onto the filter outlet as well.

Would road test but 1st its too dark out now to be doing that even though it's only country roads. 2nd is an issue I knew was coming. Whoever had used this motor before I got it had changed out the dipstick tube form some reason...for one about 2ft long...probably from a Mk3 since parts car Mk2 Jetta I have still has the short setup. It only loosely fits the hole in the block (after fighting the crooked thing into place) then siliconed the hell out of it. Tube was too long for the 20in long stick. Tube has a lip that I assumed used to be the stop @ the block (from where ever) but had so much excess it would bottom out in the pan 4in before contact. I cut off the excess so lip contacts the block & the dipstick extends into the block the correct depth...however it leaves me with a tube that reaches up to be even with the top radiator hose. Re-siliconed the tube to block but it still leaks. Tube has the 4in long tab to secure it to the block...but no such place here.

Hint's on what diameter tubing should fit the block? I have spare (short) dipsticks...even a tube were it possible to remove it from the long-seized motor (a freebie boat anchor).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,013 Posts
Quite the saga.
Glad you didn't give up.

An 11mm head will work with a turbo,
it just needs head studs.

Looks like plenty of clear fuel lines.
That's not a current picture is it?
A vacuum gauge hooked to the fuel line will tell if the pump is pulling fuel too hard.
Turn one of those 90s into a T.
Could be a fuel line restriction is slowing the flow at higher speeds.

A dash-mounted vacuum gauge on the fuel line will let you know if there:
is a clogged tank screen
a clogged tank vent line can collapse your tank
if your fuel is gelling
or if your fuel filter is clogging
before your stuck beside the road.
All my MK1s and 2s have one.

Also make sure the accel lever is going all the way to the stop
watch while someone floors it (engine off).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
In the recent post forgot to add that I started it up & it ran even...either due to not seeing any bubbles on the pump inlet line and or the used-off-the-shelf replacement pump is freeing itself up more.
The above image is older but the plumbing is the same...just less criss-crossing. One of these days I'll figure out how to make it into modular unit.
No danger of fuel gelling here...the day it gets cold enough here for that will be the day hell freezes over.

In daylight will try to get images of the troublesome dipstick tube. The long arse (all metal) one I have to work with...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Got home late but was still a LITTLE light out but fortunately have a flash. Didn't think to silicone the tube in when motor was out (would've been easier to get it all around)...but didn't have the tube shortened @ the time either. Most of what is seen was put on in an attempt to seal before all the coolant plumbing was reinstalled. Weeps enough @ idle that I'd probably lose a quart by the time I got to work 45mi away. Is evidence by the wet & oily look of the alternator harness that it was spitting. Last night I managed to get a few extra dabs in place what with the hoses in the way now. Have a mind to give the area a good douse with parts cleaner & use JB weld putty all around it to better anchor the tube & ideally stop further leaks while keeping the silicone in place at its core.

Having a helluva time uploading images with my internet (live rural boonies so signal is sketchy)

First 2 images are as best as I can tell similarly how the PO had previously done it. The light grey is what's left of the old silicone that wouldn't come off. The black below is fresh oil stain.
Automotive fuel system Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle Tread

Automotive tire Hood Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Tread


Bracket that does absolutely no good.
Automotive tire Tin Motor vehicle Automotive wheel system Gas


Dipstick in its entirety. Tube was originally about 3-4 in longer. than even the stick.
Tire Automotive tire Motor vehicle Hood Bumper
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,344 Posts
Damn-it!!!! I KNEW I should have invested in tubing futures last week.......................

What are you doing next? I've got my broker on the line....................
That made me spit up and overflow with unexpected laughter.

5 star post.

I had a pressure gauge Teed into the fuel Inlet on a friends diesel skid steer.
It’s not a bad idea to run a gauge on the dash for your dual tank setup.




He put a new fuel filter on and the problem went away and has yet to return.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,442 Posts
Interesting fuel setup… I see 2 filters, an oil heat exchanger being used and a standard style used, also. What’s the black tank looking thing… the lift pump?

-Todd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The rear filter next to the air box is the regular diesel one. The other (MANN underneath the filter heater...exact same one used as oil coolers) of course is for the oil. Only lift pump (not pictured) is in back mounted next to the in-bed oil tank where it would serve the most good in helping move the cooler oil...handy for priming especially when only diesel is in the tank when I don't have any oil ready. It's an FRC-6 WALBRO pump that is a solenoid plunger type (no rubber parts) that can be found as part of the APU plants on reefer trailers...4 ft of draft ability so even though it's next to the tank it has about 20+ in of line to suck through it's up to the task. When things are warmed up then I can switch it off & just let the IP do the drawing.

If by "black tank looking thing" you mean the one w/ the 4 line connections its the FPHE wrapped in a couple layers of old tractor tube to act as insulation from heat loss to air moving through engine bay when driving & against vibration as the thing is strapped to the sub-frame w/ a piece of plywood between it & the heater. The large lines are the the coolant connections while the smaller are the oil...flow in opposite directions.

Doing other digging...wouldn't the dipstick tube have had a seal of some kind? By valve stem seal just wedge it over the tube then try wedging it in?
I doubt this one was correct to begin with. It's a bear to start back in the hole if removed (not about to now unless I have to). Originally before trimming length it would bottom out in the pan & would still have poked up a couple inches above the top radiator hose which would be far enough to get bent up if the hood were closed at all.
 
1 - 20 of 123 Posts
Top