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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
The planets have aligned and my goat sacrifices to the ancient god Krikhanak finally paid off, we built today. Showed up early this morning to start bending the main frame tubes and almost immediately realized I had made a pretty basic mathematical error. Thankfully I noticed it before we started bending anything and we were able to rework the bend and length calculations before messing up any metal. That fixed we set about making a jig of sorts on the table to ensure the parallel sections of tube on each side were in fact parallel and that the front bits are in the correct locations.

There was concern that the angles we needed couldn't be reliably produced with the equipment we have, but the issue with the frame is that the inclined sections aren't overly important to the construction of the frame. The important bits are all tied to the parallel front and back sections with the floor coming off the back and the front suspension and steering points being at the front. It was only really necessary to make sure the stuff is repeatable and mirrored side to side. Problems arose with Corey mixed up one of the tubes and we bent one of the long sections wrong. Wasn't really the end of the world, should be enough small sections to keep using more of it.

Ended up getting the four main tubes bent and tacked together then started working on other things. It got a little scattered at that point. We were working on the tube that will form the back of the cockpit and the frame rise to get over the rear axle. Then when it looked like we were going to bend that it somehow got decided that we needed the front cross member in first. What we should have done at that point was cut several strips out of the sheet of 14 gauge so that while one of us was working on drawing the cross member up in CAD the other two of us could be welding those sheet pieces to the frame sections. What actually happened was the three of us BS'd and the cross member with discussed, drawn and cut on the plasma table. There was probably beer involved. Once the stuff was cut out I started cleaning the pieces while there was more BSing happening. There was definitely beer involved.

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There was talk about how to do a roll hoop and whether of not to do it. I don't like it visually but acknowledge the need of it. Feel like it's workable and probably consistent with what places will demand to actually drive the car aggressively somewhere. There was also more talk about trying to make the car street legal and I'm still not sold on the idea. Admittedly I haven't check what would be needed here to road register it, but I have a feeling that it's hoops I'm not interested in jumping through. The other people who have seen the project in person and talked about it keep saying I'll want to be able to drive it on the street when it's done, but I've but the motorcycles for when I want to go out alone and the weather is permitting things. It's not like this thing will be more weather friendly than a motorcycle so it would just compete with the bikes for attention on the nice days.

All in all we made progress today, real actual progress and it feels good. Would've been great to have gotten more done with the nearly 11 hours today, but the foundation is there now and everything is solid and straight and that's the important thing.
 

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I've been fallowing this for a while now and am really enjoying this.
Still can't quite wrap my head around that valve train set-up though and I was wondering how well it would respond to a more radical cam?
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
I've been fallowing this for a while now and am really enjoying this.
Still can't quite wrap my head around that valve train set-up though and I was wondering how well it would respond to a more radical cam?
The short answer based upon what I've seen is it won't. What the engine REALLY wants is more RPM, it simply isn't moving enough air to take advantage of the free flowing heads and a more radical cam by itself is just going to make that even worse. That of course assuming you could find someone with any clue what kind of grind it would need. What I've seen is that with these engines in stock form 5000 RPM is the end of the world and what the computer program was showing was that with the blower spinning twice crank RPM peak HP occurs at about 4750 RPM with the stock cam so there really isn't any advantage to going with more lift or duration there.

IF a guy wanted to go crazy and have lighter pistons and stronger rods made and turn the thing to 6000 or so, and slow the blower down to it didn't explode at that speed, you could really see some gigantic gains with a different cam. That's way more money and commitment than I have interest in giving to the engine though. It's hard to overstate how much this head flows in relation to the way the rest of the engine was designed. Even with the 90 cubic inch blower the 230 cubic inch engine can't move enough air to make the heads a restriction.

One thing you COULD do if you are smarter than me is reprofile the exhaust rocker arm pads. Nobody runs identical cam profiles for intake and exhaust at this point, you couldn't even find a lawn mower engine doing it. If memory serves most people now say you want exhaust flow to be roughly 70% of intake flow for peak efficiency of the engine. So it would be possible to change the rocker arms, which would effectively change the camshaft duration so you could in turn make the intake and exhaust valve openings different that way potentially hitting that 70% flow number where you are making peak HP and make the current cam better that way. That would take someone way smarter than I to actually accomplish though as I'm sure I'd just make things worse rather than better.

To end all of that, I'll say that given the racing history of the engine in Argentina it's highly possible that someone has made performance cams for it at some point or possibly still does but they don't easy come up in searches and I haven't pressed the matter. Even with the way things are already I'm hoping/expecting to hit the 7 or 8 pounds per horsepower mark which should be more than enough for the car to be entertaining up to the 110mph top speed.
 

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If anyone is going to have camshaft information it will be Delta Camshaft in Tacoma, WA.

DeltaCam.com
 

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The short answer based upon what I've seen is it won't. What the engine REALLY wants is more RPM, it simply isn't moving enough air to take advantage of the free flowing heads and a more radical cam by itself is just going to make that even worse. That of course assuming you could find someone with any clue what kind of grind it would need. What I've seen is that with these engines in stock form 5000 RPM is the end of the world and what the computer program was showing was that with the blower spinning twice crank RPM peak HP occurs at about 4750 RPM with the stock cam so there really isn't any advantage to going with more lift or duration there.

IF a guy wanted to go crazy and have lighter pistons and stronger rods made and turn the thing to 6000 or so, and slow the blower down to it didn't explode at that speed, you could really see some gigantic gains with a different cam. That's way more money and commitment than I have interest in giving to the engine though. It's hard to overstate how much this head flows in relation to the way the rest of the engine was designed. Even with the 90 cubic inch blower the 230 cubic inch engine can't move enough air to make the heads a restriction.

One thing you COULD do if you are smarter than me is reprofile the exhaust rocker arm pads. Nobody runs identical cam profiles for intake and exhaust at this point, you couldn't even find a lawn mower engine doing it. If memory serves most people now say you want exhaust flow to be roughly 70% of intake flow for peak efficiency of the engine. So it would be possible to change the rocker arms, which would effectively change the camshaft duration so you could in turn make the intake and exhaust valve openings different that way potentially hitting that 70% flow number where you are making peak HP and make the current cam better that way. That would take someone way smarter than I to actually accomplish though as I'm sure I'd just make things worse rather than better.

To end all of that, I'll say that given the racing history of the engine in Argentina it's highly possible that someone has made performance cams for it at some point or possibly still does but they don't easy come up in searches and I haven't pressed the matter. Even with the way things are already I'm hoping/expecting to hit the 7 or 8 pounds per horsepower mark which should be more than enough for the car to be entertaining up to the 110mph top speed.
Sounds like the same problem that the 289 Tunnel Port had back in the day: the heads would flow at an incredible amount, but only at an RPM that would have turned the 289 crank into an oversized bent paper clip. Sorta makes me wonder why Kaiser/Jeep mated it to a flat head engine, which I seem to recall don't breathe well to begin with?
 

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Can't believe I missed this a few days ago. Awesome, in for updates.
 
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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
Sounds like the same problem that the 289 Tunnel Port had back in the day: the heads would flow at an incredible amount, but only at an RPM that would have turned the 289 crank into an oversized bent paper clip. Sorta makes me wonder why Kaiser/Jeep mated it to a flat head engine, which I seem to recall don't breathe well to begin with?
Money, Kaiser was a giant corporation who was only half heartedly building cars and the overhead cam head was a quick (therefor cheap) way to try to squeeze more power out of their existing engine to compete with all the V8s that other companies were rolling out. What makes this even worse is that it isn't just putting that head on an old flathead 6, it was putting it on an engine block that way based off of an old tractor engine so it was completely designed with bottom end torque in mind and no intention of it ever having to rev anywhere.
 

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With that much boost will the rods be able to take it? I suppose the fact that it's just compression rather than compression and tension (a very stressful combination!) so the pistons won't be tugging at it any harder at the same RPM makes it okay.

This whole build is so much different than what I'm used to I'm just compelled to ask questions. :)

Keep it up! :D
 

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The short answer based upon what I've seen is it won't. What the engine REALLY wants is more RPM, it simply isn't moving enough air to take advantage of the free flowing heads and a more radical cam by itself is just going to make that even worse. That of course assuming you could find someone with any clue what kind of grind it would need. What I've seen is that with these engines in stock form 5000 RPM is the end of the world and what the computer program was showing was that with the blower spinning twice crank RPM peak HP occurs at about 4750 RPM with the stock cam so there really isn't any advantage to going with more lift or duration there.

IF a guy wanted to go crazy and have lighter pistons and stronger rods made and turn the thing to 6000 or so, and slow the blower down to it didn't explode at that speed, you could really see some gigantic gains with a different cam. That's way more money and commitment than I have interest in giving to the engine though. It's hard to overstate how much this head flows in relation to the way the rest of the engine was designed. Even with the 90 cubic inch blower the 230 cubic inch engine can't move enough air to make the heads a restriction.

One thing you COULD do if you are smarter than me is reprofile the exhaust rocker arm pads. Nobody runs identical cam profiles for intake and exhaust at this point, you couldn't even find a lawn mower engine doing it. If memory serves most people now say you want exhaust flow to be roughly 70% of intake flow for peak efficiency of the engine. So it would be possible to change the rocker arms, which would effectively change the camshaft duration so you could in turn make the intake and exhaust valve openings different that way potentially hitting that 70% flow number where you are making peak HP and make the current cam better that way. That would take someone way smarter than I to actually accomplish though as I'm sure I'd just make things worse rather than better.

To end all of that, I'll say that given the racing history of the engine in Argentina it's highly possible that someone has made performance cams for it at some point or possibly still does but they don't easy come up in searches and I haven't pressed the matter. Even with the way things are already I'm hoping/expecting to hit the 7 or 8 pounds per horsepower mark which should be more than enough for the car to be entertaining up to the 110mph top speed.
The Agentine car certainly looks different but you can still see that Rambler roof line that I got partial to in the early '80s(had a GF that had a bone stock Rambler Scrambler at that time):
Car Wheel Tire Vehicle Land vehicle
 

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Money, Kaiser was a giant corporation who was only half heartedly building cars and the overhead cam head was a quick (therefor cheap) way to try to squeeze more power out of their existing engine to compete with all the V8s that other companies were rolling out. What makes this even worse is that it isn't just putting that head on an old flathead 6, it was putting it on an engine block that way based off of an old tractor engine so it was completely designed with bottom end torque in mind and no intention of it ever having to rev anywhere.
Now I know what that design reminds me of:
😁 😁
Tire Wheel Fuel tank Cloud Automotive fuel system

They did essentially the same thing with the 1982 Hesketh V Twin: Cosworth V8 head design on a low revving v twin. I recall several writers of the time, including LJK Setright, going on about the mis-match of the high flowing Cosworth head design and the low-reving nature of a big v twin.
Apologies for getting side tracked, ;)
 

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Awesome thread, cant believe I missed this. Subbed.
I'm really enjoying it, too.

I hope I don't come across as a naysayer when I ask questions, but I'm asking because of my unfamiliarity. Dealing with an engine that doesn't have a ginormous (or even modest!) aftermarket is basically alien to me. It's gutsy and very cool. (y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Oh by all means, ask anything. I enjoy the discussion and wouldn't be here if I didn't. I'll answer to the best of my ability even if my best answer is that I have no clue. The guys helping build it I keep telling to remember that I haven't done this before and no question is a bad one because there are going to be things I haven't thought of or just flat out screwed up planning. On here is the same way, it's more than possible someone will see something that needs addressed or fleshed out better than I have. Even if it's something I've done purposefully and don't want to change I'll give my reasoning behind it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
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Welded up the pieces of the cross member tonight. Was able to keep it real square, with it flipped upside down all four "legs" still touch the table and sticking an angle finder on it shows it to be 0.2 degrees off true which is good enough for me. Got a set of weld nuts in today to serve as threading for the control arm bolts, but I'm curious how I ended up with 8 of them. I had ordered four from one place and four from another, and I'm still supposed to get another set Friday, but got 8 today so I'm not sure what's all coming in.

I need to get back on the lathe and mess with some of the Heim sleeves but there is a super heavy table in the way along with a couple cars that need to be moved. So I haven't done that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Another day yesterday, probably spent 8 hours working on the chassis and then another 4 BSing at the end of the day. My older son asked when I got home what all I had gotten done and it was just a day working to build the cross member. It felt like there should have been way more accomplished than just working on a cross member that was started last weekend, but thinking about it there are 22 separate pieces of metal that need welded together to make the cross member and it doesn't feel like as much of a wasted day.

Started off just sitting what I had welded up last week under the nose of the frame and making sure it still fit.
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That done it was time to put the control arm mounting points in. Funny thing on weld nuts the four I got in Friday that we had based our cross member measurements off of showed up incorrect and need sent back. In the end it worked out well that I accidentally ordered 8 from the one place because that's where we ended up going with the mounting, and really I'm happier this way. Welded the threaded inserts into a piece of tube and then welded the tube into the cross member.
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With the threaded inserts welded in the skin pieces of the cross member started getting cut and welded in. So that ended up being the better part of the day just cutting pieces on the plasma table, cleaning the cut pieces, and then adding them to the rest of the cross member.
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Giving the people what they want, more Corey (Cat****taco on Instagram if you just can't get enough).
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Didn't even get the cross member completely together. Have to trim a piece then weld it on, and then curve the last two pieces and weld them up. My boss texted and asked how things were going when we were standing around drinking at the end of the night though so we slid the cross member under the frame and took one more picture.
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Amongst the things discussed was how I had designed this and truck projects Jeff and Corey have coming and what we could do with them suspension wise. Jeff was critiquing my welding and giving me pointers. We talked about the upper rails for the race car chassis too to kind of plan on where that's going. I'm not convinced the front part of the frame will be stiff enough without reinforcement, Jeff and Corey think reinforcement will just be adding weight. I think we came up with a reasonable compromise though. There will be more on that later.
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
Back at it this morning, first thing was to fit the other bottom corner piece of the cross member and weld it in so both bottom corners were done
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Then I cut and bent a piece for the inside corners and welded first one
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Then the other
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That had the entire cross member assembled.

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Things got a little weird here. Measuring where to put the cross member in the frame showed the cross member in a completely different place than I had it placed last weekend when I thought I had measured things out then. I double, triple, then quadruple checked it today. Then I had Jeff look at things because it just felt weird. We had it in the same place though so I got it welded in flipping the whole deal upside down to weld around the bottom of the tubes.
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My wife was going to see Garth Brooks with some coworkers tonight so I couldn't stay as long as last weekend. Finished the afternoon up getting the outside of the frame tubes cleaned of carbon so I can cut and weld on the plating next.
20210731_152222.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
Back at it this morning, first thing was to fit the other bottom corner piece of the cross member and weld it in so both bottom corners were done
20210731_091352.jpg
Then I cut and bent a piece for the inside corners and welded first one
20210731_100754.jpg
Then the other
20210731_111143.jpg
That had the entire cross member assembled.

20210731_113328.jpg 20210731_113341.jpg
Things got a little weird here. Measuring where to put the cross member in the frame showed the cross member in a completely different place than I had it placed last weekend when I thought I had measured things out then. I double, triple, then quadruple checked it today. Then I had Jeff look at things because it just felt weird. We had it in the same place though so I got it welded in flipping the whole deal upside down to weld around the bottom of the tubes.
20210731_133505.jpg


My wife was going to see Garth Brooks with some coworkers tonight so I couldn't stay as long as last weekend. Finished the afternoon up getting the outside of the frame tubes cleaned of carbon so I can cut and weld on the plating next.
20210731_152222.jpg
 

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Imagining that head scratching moment gave me a bit of indigestion even through the internet…. Glad it worked out in the end.

Also glad to see your progress. Like so many things, I can imagine what it’s like to build a tube frame, but have no real concept of how long it takes and how involved it is to actually do it. My only real reference is reconfiguring/framing out a gut remodel… and that feels painfully slow at times. So thanks for sharing this!
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
The sending unit pack I ordered back in February showed up today. Didn't think it would be here till October or so. Funny that the camera refused to focus on the box instead always trying to make the picture about the XS650.

109217
 
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