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Very cool project!! I'm a Tornado and AMC guy so I don't really belong here, but why not with this thread.

I have a thread going on over on the Willys Forum where we have compiled as much info as possible on the Tornado:


There is some cam info and other stuff, and some links to some fast Argentinean stuff. These things can make some pretty massive power - here are some hilites:



And this is a little related to your project:

 

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Discussion Starter · #123 ·
Hand tool Wood Motor vehicle Metalworking hand tool Bumper

Tire Wheel Automotive tire Tread Hubcap

Automotive tire Tread Wood Floor Engineering

Automotive tire Snake Flooring Wood Floor


Spindles done (essentially) and the arm mounts for the rear axle welded together. Don't have the outer tie rod ends yet to know what to tap the steering arm holes in the spindles but everything else is done.
 

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Very cool project!! I'm a Tornado and AMC guy so I don't really belong here, but why not with this thread.

I have a thread going on over on the Willys Forum where we have compiled as much info as possible on the Tornado:


There is some cam info and other stuff, and some links to some fast Argentinean stuff. These things can make some pretty massive power - here are some hilites:



And this is a little related to your project:

At the end of the link it's stated that someone was running just over 6 seconds in the 1/8 which would equal about 9 seconds in the quarter. That's really stepping out for an I6 but I don't see how you could do that with an under square engine like this: I'd Love to see a tear down of That particular engine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #126 ·
At the end of the link it's stated that someone was running just over 6 seconds in the 1/8 which would equal about 9 seconds in the quarter. That's really stepping out for an I6 but I don't see how you could do that with an under square engine like this: I'd Love to see a tear down of That particular engine.
Boost and gearing. I've seen diesel trucks do close to that so RPM isn't necessarily a limitation.

Video version of looking at the spindles


It's cool to see this thread traveling too.
 

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I have not been able to find much detail. Of course not understanding Spanish does not help. There are a few videos claiming big power Tornados (one 1000!!); makes you wonder. I am always a little skeptical of claimed hp numbers because there is so much BS out there, but Dodaros car seems to back it up. There is a video showing 739 RWHP, and the car certainly is fast. It is the later 7 main bearing block for sure. Bet he has paid a lot of dues making that much power. Love to know how many transmissions he broke, and what the fast setup is - think there is a transbrake there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #128 ·
If the Renaults were making 250 normally aspirated on a 4 main bottom end 750 on a boosted drag racing specific engine doesn't seem far fetched at all. Especially with the actual 6 intake port head. It does make you wonder though if they changed the block castings to incorporate a more modern bell housing flange. Wish I had that kind of money to drop on this thing......or even half that kind of money.
 

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If the Renaults were making 250 normally aspirated on a 4 main bottom end 750 on a boosted drag racing specific engine doesn't seem far fetched at all. Especially with the actual 6 intake port head. It does make you wonder though if they changed the block castings to incorporate a more modern bell housing flange. Wish I had that kind of money to drop on this thing......or even half that kind of money.
Interesting: if they Had changed the casting, what sort of trannies do you figure that they'd be running?
 

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It's hard to tell from pictures, but I think the back of the block stayed the same. I've tracked a huge amount of "evolutionary" changes with the big ones the 7 mains and a redesigned cam system.

There are several horribly heavy cast iron bellhousing options that bolt on, just not common. The Wagoneers did use a BW automatic. The 226 bellhousing also fits. They had some kind of 4 speed in the Torinos; probably something European. I expect IKA just cast a bellhousing to suit. Wondering if Dodaro adapted some kind of conventional automatic to go that fast.
 

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Discussion Starter · #131 ·
Interesting: if they Had changed the casting, what sort of trannies do you figure that they'd be running?
Once you go through the trouble of changing the back of the block, or even just making a custom bell housing the world is your oyster for transmissions. Given the eventual Frenchness of IKA Renault I like to think they specifically changed the engine block to be able to run a pre-selecter gearbox, though that is unsubstantiated.

It's hard to tell from pictures, but I think the back of the block stayed the same. I've tracked a huge amount of "evolutionary" changes with the big ones the 7 mains and a redesigned cam system.

There are several horribly heavy cast iron bellhousing options that bolt on, just not common. The Wagoneers did use a BW automatic. The 226 bellhousing also fits. They had some kind of 4 speed in the Torinos; probably something European. I expect IKA just cast a bellhousing to suit. Wondering if Dodaro adapted some kind of conventional automatic to go that fast.
I haven't seen any pictures of just the 7 bearing blocks. It's interesting to think that by that point basically everything about the engine (block, head,crank,cam system) could have been changed without changing away from the tractor bell housing.
 

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Here is the best 7 main block picture I have. Hard to tell for sure, but it looks like they kept a similar bellhousing.

Motor vehicle Bumper Automotive exterior Automotive tire Gas


I think the block was an evolution. Here is a picture of an M715 block, and you can see the provisions for the mid engine mounts they used in Argentina as well as the M715 mounts

Wood Trunk Art Gas Artifact


And this application is pretty cool:

Vehicle Automotive lighting Automotive tire Fuel tank Motor vehicle
 

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Discussion Starter · #134 ·
So that is the Berta SP according to things, a prototype racer from around 1970. Same chassis as the on car video above from the looks of things. There are several things online to read or watch about it if you speak Spanish, which I don't. I will say there are a couple other pictures and it looks like a stock block with the triple Weber head. I was thinking upon first seeing the above picture that it looked like it may have a blower too, but seeing other pictures it's just a weird manifold for the air intake. One thing of interest though is that what looks to be a magneto on the back of the valve cover up there doesn't seem to appear in any other pictures or videos. It's certainly an interesting set up, but I can't imagine trying to base a serious prototype racing effort off of this engine. Then again I'm not an Argentinian in 1970 so it probably made more sense to them then.

That picture of the 7 main block makes it pretty clear they kept the original bell housing design. I was giving more thought today while working on a Bronco about a way to make a new bell housing. It just so happens that we have a spare NV3550 laying around now which could in theory be put to good use in this car as we don't really have anything else we're intending to do with it and it's highly unlikely the owner of the vehicle it came out of has any interest in it. That may well be a fools errand at this point though.

Tool Wood Engineering Metal Auto part

Assembled the steering rack mounts tonight, should be able to get them welded onto the cross member tomorrow night now.
 

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Here is the best 7 main block picture I have. Hard to tell for sure, but it looks like they kept a similar bellhousing.

View attachment 136971

I think the block was an evolution. Here is a picture of an M715 block, and you can see the provisions for the mid engine mounts they used in Argentina as well as the M715 mounts

View attachment 136974

And this application is pretty cool:

View attachment 136970
I can't quite make it out from the angle that the photo was taken but that mag unit has a red splash on its base that looks a little like the old Mallory logo from the sixties and seventies, which was different from todays logo. I guess that they might have used an off the shelf item and modified it rather than build one from scratch? On the other hand it doesn't seem to be in the dyno video, so what was the point?
 

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Maybe the bodied car has a dry sump system, and if they don't use a stock oil pump they don't have a distributor drive. So move the distributor drive to the end of the cam. Just a guess.

Also cool the engine seems to be a stressed member of the chassis in 1970. You are not doing that with the plate supported engine. That Berta guy seems to have been fairly cutting edge!
 

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Discussion Starter · #137 ·
Lot's of pictures today. Started by getting the tie rod ends fitted to the spindles. Being a tapered fit stud I needed to add a couple of shims top and bottom of the plate to add thickness for the taper to seat correctly. They were located where they are trying to get the ball joint and tie rod heights equal to get the steering geometry to line up.

20211204_114951.jpg 20211204_114957.jpg

With that taken care of I got the steering rack mounts measured and welded and then went ahead and bolted on the rack.

20211204_114635.jpg 20211204_114645.jpg 20211204_115005.jpg

Then took a largely pointless picture with the assembled spindle hooked to the tie rod. It kind of shows wheel to frame spacing, so we can pretend that's why it happened. Mostly it's a cool look.

20211204_115902.jpg


Really need the one inch die to show up for the tubing bender so I can make the control arms. Hasn't happened yet though so moved on to the rear axle and welded the four link mounts to the axle tubes.
20211204_150607.jpg 20211204_170058.jpg 20211204_170157.jpg

At that point I was looking at front anchor points for the four link but didn't do anymore actual work. Through the week I've been thinking about the four link in the back and specifically the Watts Link arrangement. Looking at what happens when you vertically offset the pivot point of the Watts Link. If you lift the pivot point up above the center line of the axle it will slide the axle side to side when the axle articulates. If you lift it to the point of the top of the tires it would essentially self correct the distance between the tire and body, so if you have a situation with little tire to fender clearance that would keep the tires from rubbing.

Not having fenders, and there being more than 6 inches between the tire and body I'm not really worried about body clearance with this project. The interesting thing with relevance to this though is that if you triangulate the four link bars, and side to side movement in the rear axle turns into rear steering. More stuff, like the bump steer in the front end, that would be super undesirable for a street car because pot holes would cause this and it would turn weird. As a track car though, passive rear steer appeals to me. It will be slight because of the geometry of those four link bars, but it will be there and the idea I'm thinking is worth it. I had worked all the numbers out the other morning and don't remember exactly but at full tilt it's less than a couple degrees.
 

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Discussion Starter · #140 ·
Got the bending die yesterday, so we can make some control arms tomorrow (fingers crossed).

Wanted to do a bit of a rant here about some **** from work, but sitting on it for a minute it's not a great idea. I'll leave it with doing this chassis makes me happy because I can just make **** work and not have to try and fix things that don't work.
 
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