[Jman5000]

I don't know, and the shop that had the dyno tunes Z's and Mistu's...but I see where they were going w/their conclusions.
My APR programming was a little lean to 2500, then on the money a/f-wise till around 5k, where it got richer. The 2nd and 3rd runs got richer sooner. The techs told me that the ECU is dumping fuel (as a heat sink) to fight the heat.
ChrisG's Up program (run under the same condition back-back-back) gave the EXACT a/f reading every time. And he got WAAAAY too rich (below 1 at high rpm) for a big part of the upper band.
The techs said there's no way the read could be exact every time just b/c it isn't that way. There are always fluctuations for conditions. Like heat.
The tech surmised that the Up a/f program was overriding what the sensors are telling the ECU to do.
If that's the case, is that good/bad? We all nodded our heads logically that an adaptive program is better for the engine.
Thoughts?

 

[OverPSI]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Jman5000)

What are you using to measure air fuel?? If it is not a WideBand Lambda meter, you are just playing games....

 

[Jman5000]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (OverPSI)

Using a gameless Wide-band lamda.
Plotted on graphs and the whole 9...

 

[Jman5000]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Jman5000)

ttt

 

[SlvrBllt]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Jman5000)

ttt

 

[Gambit]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Jman5000)

Just curious - was this plugged into the tail pipe or did the put it upstream from the Cat (right after the turbo)?

 

[Jman5000]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Gambit)

Tailpipe.
But the Up program having a cookie-cutter a/f read when that just isn't supposed to happen?
Not one other car did this. Wett, APR, VR6, 1.8T, even a bone stock 1.8T still richen-ed up w/heat.

 

[Electron Man]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Jman5000)

quote:[HR][/HR]If that's the case, is that good/bad?[HR][/HR]​

Adding too much fuel can be bad for the cat (over 40K-60K miles). Tell ChrisG to keep an eye out for soot build-up on his cars arse.

 

[Jman5000]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Electron Man)

Come to think of it...we have the same muffler and his is sooty-er.
Just figured that was just a cleaning thing. I'll tell him to clean it, and then see how much soot he picks up over a day or so.

 

[Jman5000]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (wolfsburg_de)

What is that a post of? I'm guessing APR or GIAC?
Any chance you have overlays of A/F of subsequent runs?
Rich/lean or whatever...my point of all of this was that over 3 runs practically on top of each other the program ran the exact same a/f mix regardless of conditions, when no other program on any engine did that.
What this is or means is the question. It's like having 3 variables in a 5 variable equation, you can make some logic based deductions, but it's far from the answer.
Don't think this is an attack on Upsolute. Based on what I just typed above, there is too many unknowns out there to conclude anything dicisively.
Regardless of what chip, I would have posted this information. Don't think I'm attacking a vendor. To me, this is the interesting stuff that most of us like to pursue while our friends say "it's just a car, dude..."
PS-Rene has Chris's plots and is checking them out.



[Modified by Jman5000, 11:04 AM 2-11-2002]

 

[ChrisG]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (wolfsburg_de)

Ok Gentlemen,
I have a K04 1.8t NB-APH..... The original software was purchased through Bug_Power and was one of the first K04 programs produced by Upsolute based from an AWD k04 program. I have never been able to get any other additional updates cause it is my understanding Upsolute in Austria has been concentration many man hours on several other projects based on the sound information I have received from Rodney Wade.
Rene and I have been emailing each other to try to figure out how to increase Hp without losing the quality torque figure. However, I had not tested the A/F mixture till last Saturday. The A/F plot concerned me cause there is a defined lean to rich conversion happening exactly at 4500 rpm in all runs..... till it trickles almost off the plot a little before redline.
Andrew... I have been extreme patience for over 3 months with Rodney's help, however Up has been busy with other tuning projects. I love the Upsolute concept and understand when companies are new it takes time to make things happen. I also understand the client's urgency is always higher than most companies ability to respond. I know Rene will pull through for us and I look forward to building a strong alliance with Upsolute to get my K04 to kick some A$$.
Thanks again for your concern.... Out ChrisG

 

[ChrisG]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (wolfsburg_de)

ttt 4 me

 

[AZGolf]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Jman5000)

quote:[HR][/HR]The techs said there's no way the read could be exact every time just b/c it isn't that way. There are always fluctuations for conditions. Like heat.
The tech surmised that the Up a/f program was overriding what the sensors are telling the ECU to do.[HR][/HR]​

If you're using a stock ECU, I don't think there's any way to tell it to fuel without discretion for readings from the sensors. It's probably just programmed to run way rich in open loop mode.

 

[Bug_Power]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (AZGolf)

You guys also need to remember that Chris has G/J injectors in his New Beetle. Once we get those A/F's to Alex in Austira, he can take that and the EGT readings and thin out the mixture accordingly. FWIW all of our progams to date use all the sensors and do have a variable A/F ratio based on ECU data. We haven't had any problems of yet and this would be the first time I'd seen any concerns other then Chris just asking that we make the progam a bit stronger. I think Chris will even tell you that the performance gains compared to the alternatives have been substantial. Chris we will continue to try and get this ironed out with you and work to get your K04 running to it's max potential!

 

[ChrisG]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Bug_Power)

I know it is small..... but these line are almost identical it may just be coincidence?

it shows very little deviation especially if compare to Andrew's post.


[Modified by ChrisG, 7:33 PM 2-11-2002]

 

[Jman5000]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (ChrisG)

TTT for an interesting thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

 

[Bug_Power]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Jman5000)

Chris can you get a better picture of that to me?

 

[ChrisG]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (Bug_Power)

Yeah..... No problem...Rodney. Just been hammered here at the firm... Will get scanned one emailed to you when I get home.

 

[ChrisG]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (ChrisG)

TTT yeah thats right.

 

[john s]

Re: Air-fuel readings on 2 different chips...why is it like this? (ChrisG)

Are you seeing anything on block #112?