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Remember this? https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...-efficiency-standards-of-cars&highlight=Trump

Ford, VW, Honda and BMW will stay neutral on challenges to Trump emissions rule
General Motors, Fiat Chrysler and Toyota have sided with the Trump administration
Reuters
Jun 27th 2020 at 1:15PM

WASHINGTON — Four major automakers will not take a position on legal challenges to the Trump administration's decision to dramatically weaken Obama-era fuel economy standards but want to weigh in on any court fix, according to a document seen by Reuters.

The Trump administration in March finalized rollback of U.S. vehicle emissions standards to require 1.5% annual increases in efficiency through 2026. That is far weaker than the 5% annual increases in the discarded rules adopted under President Barack Obama.

Ford, Volkswagen, Honda and BMW struck a voluntary agreement with California in July 2019 on vehicle emissions rules. On Monday, the four automakers plan to ask a U.S. Appeals Court in Washington for permission to be heard in the court challenge "to ensure that any remedy imposed by this court is both appropriate and achievable," according to a draft of the filing.

Last month, a group of 23 U.S. states led by California, as well as the District of Columbia and some major cities, challenged the Trump vehicle rule.

Volkswagen said on Friday its "preference continues to be one set of national standards that’s achieved through an agreement between the federal government and California."

Other major automakers like General Motors, Fiat Chrysler and Toyota have sided with the Trump administration on the rollback. Those companies also sided with the Trump administration in a separate lawsuit over whether the federal government can strip California of the right to set zero emission vehicle requirements.

California Air Resources Board chair Mary Nichols told Reuters on Wednesday the board hopes to finalize the voluntary agreements in the "next few weeks" as memorandums of understanding with the individual automakers.


https://www.autoblog.com/2020/06/27...court/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&guccounter=1
 

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Eh.

He's going to do everything he can to kill not only the country, but the entire planet.

This is right in line with that philosophy.
 

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Eh.

He's going to do everything he can to kill not only the country, but the entire planet.

This is right in line with that philosophy.
Yup we need the basement guy and to defund the police to save America:laugh: We need to ban gas powered vehicles because we all want to hang around while recharging and drink mocha lattes:laugh:
 

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Could we just go with no President? Can't be worse than it is.

Whatever the deal ends up, we need 1 solution for the country. Cars are expensive as is, let alone forcing the automakers to have to deal with multiple powertrain certifications.
 

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Could we just go with no President? Can't be worse than it is.

Whatever the deal ends up, we need 1 solution for the country. Cars are expensive as is, let alone forcing the automakers to have to deal with multiple powertrain certifications.
My bet is that it won’t be sorted until all cars are electric, then and only then a decision will come down from on high.
 

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Could we just go with no President? Can't be worse than it is.

Whatever the deal ends up, we need 1 solution for the country. Cars are expensive as is, let alone forcing the automakers to have to deal with multiple powertrain certifications.
We had 1 standard for the country until the current Administration decided to nullify everything.
 

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Could we just go with no President? Can't be worse than it is.


How is 1 guy supposed to pay attention to everything going on in the world anyway? Regardless of party. Might have been a good idea back when information was slow to get around and the world was still a big place.
 

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Whatever the deal ends up, we need 1 solution for the country. Cars are expensive as is, let alone forcing the automakers to have to deal with multiple powertrain certifications.
Its almost as if we need a federal standard... which we have. The problem is not the other 49 states and the federal government, its that California needs to just be lopped off like a cancerous limb. Just put a big label on it, "WARNING: This state contains politics known as the State of California to cause cancer." Make PR an official state, and then we won't have to redo our flag. Voila.
 

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Its almost as if we need a federal standard... which we have. The problem is not the other 49 states and the federal government, its that California needs to just be lopped off like a cancerous limb. Just put a big label on it, "WARNING: This state contains politics known as the State of California to cause cancer." Make PR an official state, and then we won't have to redo our flag. Voila.
You think a net positive solution to our country is to remove the highest producing state, and replace them with a territory with an awful debt load that runs a budget deficit? I can think it's either:

A: Anything to own the libtards.
B: You still leave cookies out for Santa Claus.
C: You're just mad tech companies are moving their employees out of California to your state, thus the state is changing and you don't like it.
D: All of the above.
 

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I’m all for 1 standard, but lets use the more stringent one. It’s the very least we can do for the environment.

I live in a CARB state, it is not a big deal.
 

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California only has a high GDP because its overpopulated, not because it has a crazy high per capita GDP (especially once you count the "undocumented"), its growth has lagged behind US average, refugees and businesses are abandoning the state as cities are littered with homeless and open drug use, and they wield a toxic influence on neighboring good states and so its appropriate to implement a containment strategy just as we did with the USSR. I don't believe in redistribution of wealth, so PR's that are already citizens and getting benefits anyway becoming a state simply means they would contribute to the pool and have proper representation! :thumbup:

In any case, if you want your car to be more expensive to own and operate with reduced performance, you CAN still do that. No one is telling you that you can't buy a Honda Clarity, they are just telling you that you can't force me to buy one too through regulations or punitive financial attacks.

Besides, the narrative is nonsense because pollution has declined under the Trump compared to Obama administration, not increased. And no, harmless odorless carbon-dioxide is not pollution, evidenced by the fact that unlike actual pollution I could inhale a balloon of it just be lightheaded for a second with no toxic effect and biomass has never been higher in the world's history than when CO2 levels were approximately five times higher than they are today around 250 million years ago when bigass dinosaurs were happily stomping about before a meteor wrecked the planet and screwed up the atmosphere causing an ice age which BTW we're still in the Quaternary ice age.

Any true automotive enthusiast should be very happy about this, as it means less expensive higher performance vehicles will be available, all else equal.
 

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I realize that was way too long to read, so to summarize...

MAGA Green Future, fueling trees w/ CO2:


Cali Pale Future, trees suffocating:


Its science.
 

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I’m all for 1 standard, but lets use the more stringent one. It’s the very least we can do for the environment.

I live in a CARB state, it is not a big deal.
Yup. Run Euro 6 on everything. Easy peasy.

California only has a high GDP because its overpopulated, not because it has a crazy high per capita GDP (especially once you count the "undocumented")
California is high in the nation for per capita GDP. Throw undocumented workers in there if you will, but in the US 50-75% of undocumented immigrants have ITIN's and pay taxes, thus we have data on what they're paid. Does your state not have a foundation of undocumented workers? I'm sure that it does.

For a mix of tech and Ag, this state does well. To assert anything else is being willfully ignorant. :thumbup:

its growth has lagged behind US average
No it hasn't.

refugees and businesses are abandoning the state as cities are littered with homeless and open drug use, and they wield a toxic influence on neighboring good states and so its appropriate to implement a containment strategy just as we did with the USSR. I don't believe in redistribution of wealth, so PR's that are already citizens and getting benefits anyway becoming a state simply means they would contribute to the pool and have proper representation! :thumbup:
Wow. This is a lot of unpack. Sure, California has a homeless problem. But you feel like the US needs a containment strategy for one of our states, similar to what we had to a nuclear adversary? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Man. If selling BS was king, you'd improve your states GDP by double digits, assuming people actually bought what you're selling.

I do approve of Puerto Rico becoming recognized as a state by the way, and our nation needs to treat them better. If Mississippi can vote to change their flag, so can our nation. :beer::thumbup:

In any case, if you want your car to be more expensive to own and operate with reduced performance, you CAN still do that. No one is telling you that you can't buy a Honda Clarity, they are just telling you that you can't force me to buy one too through regulations or punitive financial attacks.
Stop clutching your pearls. That's never what CARB has been about. This is just pure nonsense.

Besides, the narrative is nonsense because pollution has declined under the Trump compared to Obama administration, not increased. And no, harmless odorless carbon-dioxide is not pollution, evidenced by the fact that unlike actual pollution I could inhale a balloon of it just be lightheaded for a second with no toxic effect and biomass has never been higher in the world's history than when CO2 levels were approximately five times higher than they are today around 250 million years ago when bigass dinosaurs were happily stomping about before a meteor wrecked the planet and screwed up the atmosphere causing an ice age which BTW we're still in the Quaternary ice age.

Any true automotive enthusiast should be very happy about this, as it means less expensive higher performance vehicles will be available, all else equal.
Pollution has not decreased under Trump. I'll save you the quick Googling. Fine particulate matter is up 5%.

Carbon dioxide isn't an issue because you can breathe into a balloon a few times? Is the earth not a sphere because you can spray water on a basket ball and it all drops off the bottom, and our oceans don't drain off the bottom by Antartica? That's some lovely pseudo science you just mumbled out.

Like I said above, adhering to one standard is better for OEM's. Agree with you there, even though it doesn't quite equate to cheaper faster cars like you contest it will.
 

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California only has a high GDP because its overpopulated, not because it has a crazy high per capita GDP (especially once you count the "undocumented"), its growth has lagged behind US average, refugees and businesses are abandoning the state as cities are littered with homeless and open drug use, and they wield a toxic influence on neighboring good states and so its appropriate to implement a containment strategy just as we did with the USSR.
To be fair, California is 11th most densely populated of the 50 states, right behind Ohio.
 

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For a mix of tech and Ag, this state does well. To assert anything else is being willfully ignorant. :thumbup:
The point was that liberals tout Cali's high GDP, ignoring that its per capita GDP is lower than other states. You just have too many people crammed into deserts (LA) and what not. And economic growth is below national average.
But you feel like the US needs a containment strategy for one of our states, similar to what we had to a nuclear adversary?
Containment strategy had nothing to do with nukes, lots of countries have nukes, it was because they were ideological foes. We wanted to spread our ideology and they wanted to spread theirs, and they were opposing views. That's what the proxy wars were about. An eagle cannot fly if its right and left wings don't have a unified goal, so two homogeneous but separate countries that just trade with one another like the US and China would be preferable IMO.
Fake news as usual. Major pollutants are ozone, sulphur dioxide, carbon monoxide, lead, plastics, and other chemicals leaching into ground water and oceans and they have unilaterally decreased. Fine particulate matter is lower under the Trump administration than Obama per the EPA: https://www.epa.gov/air-trends/particulate-matter-pm25-trends and your own source says that the bad air quality days had to do with wild-fires, which is a problem in California created by Democrats that opposed repeated Republican efforts to reduce fire fuel loads.
Carbon dioxide isn't an issue because you can breathe into a balloon a few times?
Its not a toxin, as evidenced by the fact its perfectly harmless to breath in, just as you are doing now, and even when CO2 levels were five times higher than they are today giant dinosaurs had no problem getting enough oxygen to be active and plant life on land and in the oceans thrived. CO2 is what makes the world green.
Like I said above, adhering to one standard is better for OEM's. Agree with you there, even though it doesn't quite equate to cheaper faster cars like you contest it will.
I wasn't talking about standard unification, I was talking about different standards. The more rapidly restrictive you make the standards, as Obama was pushing, the more expensive and lower performance the vehicles become. This isn't rocket science, and I'm not sure how you can refute that with a straight face. We've already been through this once before in the 1980s which lead to a decade of craptastic cars thanks to government restrictions that came too soon and too fast.
 

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The point was that liberals tout Cali's high GDP, ignoring that its per capita GDP is lower than other states. You just have too many people crammed into deserts (LA) and what not. And economic growth is below national average.

Containment strategy had nothing to do with nukes, lots of countries have nukes, it was because they were ideological foes. We wanted to spread our ideology and they wanted to spread theirs, and they were opposing views. That's what the proxy wars were about. An eagle cannot fly if its right and left wings don't have a unified goal, so two homogeneous but separate countries that just trade with one another like the US and China would be preferable IMO.

Fake news as usual. Major pollutants are ozone, sulphur dioxide, carbon monoxide, lead, plastics, and other chemicals leaching into ground water and oceans and they have unilaterally decreased. Fine particulate matter is lower under the Trump administration than Obama per the EPA: https://www.epa.gov/air-trends/particulate-matter-pm25-trends and your own source says that the bad air quality days had to do with wild-fires, which is a problem in California created by Democrats that opposed repeated Republican efforts to reduce fire fuel loads.

Its not a toxin, as evidenced by the fact its perfectly harmless to breath in, just as you are doing now, and even when CO2 levels were five times higher than they are today giant dinosaurs had no problem getting enough oxygen to be active and plant life on land and in the oceans thrived. CO2 is what makes the world green.

I wasn't talking about standard unification, I was talking about different standards. The more rapidly restrictive you make the standards, as Obama was pushing, the more expensive and lower performance the vehicles become. This isn't rocket science, and I'm not sure how you can refute that with a straight face. We've already been through this once before in the 1980s which lead to a decade of craptastic cars thanks to government restrictions that came too soon and too fast.
I smell tom-f*ckery awry.
 

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Not to mention 55% of California's GDP is concentrated in LA and SF, generated from the top 10% earners in the entertainment and tech industry.

They had to mention "children of color" breathing in pollution during the recent zero emissions truck by 2045 mandate, LOL.
 

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The point was that liberals tout Cali's high GDP, ignoring that its per capita GDP is lower than other states. You just have too many people crammed into deserts (LA) and what not. And economic growth is below national average.
You don't need to be liberal to understand a high GDP. California is a productive state. Try and marginalize if it you will with a counter point of a lower than other state per capita GDP, but that lands with a thud. It's not low, so stop pretending that this point matters any. In the links I provided, California wasn't the best in the nation, but it was in the single digits with at least 42 states behind it.

Your link shows that California had 20 quarters of growth, tied for the winning streak of gains, but then it slowed in mid 2019 to below average. In the link I shared, it closed 2019 ahead of national GDP growth, unlike your link of a mid year snap shot.

So I'll just say it. What is your point? That California sucks because our fantastic growth slowed down to a number that still out paced the national average? It's funny man. I get you have an axe to grind with California, but to try and discount what the state does for our nation makes you look foolish and myopic.

Containment strategy had nothing to do with nukes, lots of countries have nukes, it was because they were ideological foes. We wanted to spread our ideology and they wanted to spread theirs, and they were opposing views. That's what the proxy wars were about. An eagle cannot fly if its right and left wings don't have a unified goal, so two homogeneous but separate countries that just trade with one another like the US and China would be preferable IMO.
That's my point. You think that the states are ideological foes, and should be treated the same way that we treated a nuclear adversary. That's hysterical man. Just because you dislike a state, it doesn't mean that they are an ideological foe that needs to be separated from the union.

If you want to send California packing over ideology, then what you're really saying is that this country cannot function with a difference between Liberals and Conservatives. That's patently false. We've existed with a two party system for generations. Yet, if you think that we can't, then the blue states can all leave, and the red states would probably quickly fail, as these silly high tax libtard states pay a ton to fund red states. McConnell tried that a few months ago with his "blue state bailout" nonsense, and it was a hysterical statement. Why? He was telling someone with a budget surplus to shut up, all while his own state takes more than it gives.

Funny how liberals get called snowflakes but you want a state to leave because the states don't see eye to eye? :laugh::laugh:

Fake news as usual. Major pollutants are ozone, sulphur dioxide, carbon monoxide, lead, plastics, and other chemicals leaching into ground water and oceans and they have unilaterally decreased. Fine particulate matter is lower under the Trump administration than Obama per the EPA: https://www.epa.gov/air-trends/particulate-matter-pm25-trends and your own source says that the bad air quality days had to do with wild-fires, which is a problem in California created by Democrats that opposed repeated Republican efforts to reduce fire fuel loads.
Nice selective reading. That article said a portion of it could be attributed to wildfires. Don't just ignore the other factors. Also, who owns 60% of the forests in California? The Federal Government. Who ran all branches of our Government again in 2016? Nice deflection. Point at those dumb liberals mismanaging their forests, while the state owns 2%, and the Government owns the most of it.

To be fair, laws did change after the fires, for the better, but to twist that into a neener neener Democrats don't get it argument I guess is just sadly in line with why you think liberals and conservatives can't work across the aisle.

I'll fake news you back. The EPA has been gutted, and their data is dubious. People who have been fired have banded together stating that the rise is currently significant, and what the EPA is doing is not enough. This administration has a deep history of people explaining the madness they saw first hand, and that my friend isn't fake news. Those are concerned Americans who all want the best for this place. They should be listened to. Don't buy into the "YOU'RE FIRED" reality TV nonsense.

Its not a toxin, as evidenced by the fact its perfectly harmless to breath in, just as you are doing now, and even when CO2 levels were five times higher than they are today giant dinosaurs had no problem getting enough oxygen to be active and plant life on land and in the oceans thrived. CO2 is what makes the world green.
We are not dinosaurs. That's a false equivalency.



Five times our current level, and humans as they stand are having a rough go, unless we can evolve at a rate we've never seen a human do so.

I wasn't talking about standard unification, I was talking about different standards. The more rapidly restrictive you make the standards, as Obama was pushing, the more expensive and lower performance the vehicles become. This isn't rocket science, and I'm not sure how you can refute that with a straight face. We've already been through this once before in the 1980s which lead to a decade of craptastic cars thanks to government restrictions that came too soon and too fast.
I've contested in numerous threads to adapt to Euro 6, and make it that way across the board. Easier and cheaper for the OEM, and cars that adhere to Euro 6 are not the smog pump choked cars from the 70's. Again, false equivalency. Sins of the past are not the issues of today. Stop pretending. It just screams to me "conservatives good, liberals bad!" but you also think that California should leave the nation because of ideological issues, so I don't really think you want to have a good faith discussion.

Based on this, I think the answer is D, all of the above.
 
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