AWD Tranny
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Re: AWD Tranny (VW Fox)
Would it be possible to swap in that Audi all-wheel tranny into the Fox. Would it bolt up to the block? If so, would it bolt up to a 1.8 or 2.0L 16v. I think that an all-wheel drive Fox with a 16v, rear disc brakes would be da sh#?. Or am I dreaming?, and I don't care if the battery will be in the way of the intake of a 16v... I'll move the battery to the trunk. What else, would the CV axles bolt up in front or would you have to do some fabricating the audi a-arms, spindles and all that BS. Wake me up if there is no way for this to work.
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Modified by Rien at 11:16 PM 7-16-2003
Would it be possible to swap in that Audi all-wheel tranny into the Fox. Would it bolt up to the block? If so, would it bolt up to a 1.8 or 2.0L 16v. I think that an all-wheel drive Fox with a 16v, rear disc brakes would be da sh#?. Or am I dreaming?, and I don't care if the battery will be in the way of the intake of a 16v... I'll move the battery to the trunk. What else, would the CV axles bolt up in front or would you have to do some fabricating the audi a-arms, spindles and all that BS. Wake me up if there is no way for this to work.
Modified by Rien at 11:16 PM 7-16-2003
Re: AWD Tranny (Rien)
With a little work, some patience, and some custom fab work, a fox can be outfitted with AWD. A couple of different people have set up fox's to run like this, but they are all involved in the performance rally scene. You can check out a few of them here: http://www.eurosportrally.com/
If I remember correctly, a buddy of mine from the local motorsports club actually got to ride in a 6-cylinder, twin turbo fox wagon w/ AWD. I might be wrong about him riding in the car, but he is friends with the guy who owns the car (yes, it is setup strictly for performance rallying)
So, yes, it can be done, with enough money and know-how
With a little work, some patience, and some custom fab work, a fox can be outfitted with AWD. A couple of different people have set up fox's to run like this, but they are all involved in the performance rally scene. You can check out a few of them here: http://www.eurosportrally.com/
If I remember correctly, a buddy of mine from the local motorsports club actually got to ride in a 6-cylinder, twin turbo fox wagon w/ AWD. I might be wrong about him riding in the car, but he is friends with the guy who owns the car (yes, it is setup strictly for performance rallying)
So, yes, it can be done, with enough money and know-how
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Re: AWD Tranny (dtompsett)
I remember seeing an arctic fox syncro wagon in canada, were they ever for sale in canada if so would this not work and be a beast with enuff power maybe turbo or nitrous, can we say wrx eater... besides that the person you are talking about is on the vortex i don't remember his name right now but he is on here, and on adams website. He had pics of his car in the gallery but i dont think he does anymore, just ask about him or look thru some of the names on the gallery and what kinda cars they drive, its blatantly labelled so he shouldnt be too hard to find.
hope i could help
I remember seeing an arctic fox syncro wagon in canada, were they ever for sale in canada if so would this not work and be a beast with enuff power maybe turbo or nitrous, can we say wrx eater... besides that the person you are talking about is on the vortex i don't remember his name right now but he is on here, and on adams website. He had pics of his car in the gallery but i dont think he does anymore, just ask about him or look thru some of the names on the gallery and what kinda cars they drive, its blatantly labelled so he shouldnt be too hard to find.
hope i could help
Re: AWD Tranny (MYFoxIZhot93)
I talked to this old mechanic down @ the VW wrecker last night about an audi AWD tranny being able to swap into a FOX, and about the drive shafts- he pretty much stopped me mid-sentence and said they were the same CV axle. Even if it isn't the exact same, but the lengths are.. This would ease a few headaches during a swap. Then they said they had a A4 1.8T AWD that they would sell me the whole drivetrain for $2000, w/ecu and all that BS. I figure that isn't too bad of a price. But if the Audi tranny bolts up to my engine and the CV axles are the same. Then I think I'd do the AWD swap first then do the engine swap later.. 16v, 2.0L or 1.8L?
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AWD Turbo FOX! WRX's watch out.
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I talked to this old mechanic down @ the VW wrecker last night about an audi AWD tranny being able to swap into a FOX, and about the drive shafts- he pretty much stopped me mid-sentence and said they were the same CV axle. Even if it isn't the exact same, but the lengths are.. This would ease a few headaches during a swap. Then they said they had a A4 1.8T AWD that they would sell me the whole drivetrain for $2000, w/ecu and all that BS. I figure that isn't too bad of a price. But if the Audi tranny bolts up to my engine and the CV axles are the same. Then I think I'd do the AWD swap first then do the engine swap later.. 16v, 2.0L or 1.8L?
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103 Posts
Re: AWD Tranny (Rien)
so i could basically buy a broken-ized audi a4 and swap in the engine and drivetrain? what problems would come up with doing the swap if you can think of any?
so i could basically buy a broken-ized audi a4 and swap in the engine and drivetrain? what problems would come up with doing the swap if you can think of any?
Re: AWD Tranny (Eric Happy Meal)
If I have been told correctly the blocks are the same for the most part. If this is so. then the 1.8t should mount in to exsisting mounts and hardware. Remember this is all a theory working into what would be my deam WRX eater. I have'nt seen or properly inspected the rear-wheel drive axle of the Audi yet!! So I don't know how the thing really bolts up in the rear . A little fab work WILL be nessecery( Could I get a SP on that word Tera?). As for the engine. ECU wiring and all the usual BS headaches accured in a engine swap. Custom work done to exhaust. Now my big question comes to the front control arms. It would be to easy if everything just swapped in.. CV axles, hubs, rotors, calipers? I won't know until I can compare axles, AWD tranny side by side with a five speed,( Just curious if anyone knows if the CV's for a 5sp and a 4sp are the same? Curious is all) It isn't going to be a un-bolt and bolt-up swap done on a weekend. This would be a swap for EXPERIENCED MECHANICS & WELDERS ONLY! Other words all I'm saying, if you do a swap like this make sure you have a plan first. that way you don't end up with a tore down car and a **** load of parts that you can't do anything with. Torch, grinder, clamp, & welder and I'll get it done!
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Modified by Rien at 4:21 PM 8-5-2003
If I have been told correctly the blocks are the same for the most part. If this is so. then the 1.8t should mount in to exsisting mounts and hardware. Remember this is all a theory working into what would be my deam WRX eater. I have'nt seen or properly inspected the rear-wheel drive axle of the Audi yet!! So I don't know how the thing really bolts up in the rear . A little fab work WILL be nessecery( Could I get a SP on that word Tera?). As for the engine. ECU wiring and all the usual BS headaches accured in a engine swap. Custom work done to exhaust. Now my big question comes to the front control arms. It would be to easy if everything just swapped in.. CV axles, hubs, rotors, calipers? I won't know until I can compare axles, AWD tranny side by side with a five speed,( Just curious if anyone knows if the CV's for a 5sp and a 4sp are the same? Curious is all) It isn't going to be a un-bolt and bolt-up swap done on a weekend. This would be a swap for EXPERIENCED MECHANICS & WELDERS ONLY! Other words all I'm saying, if you do a swap like this make sure you have a plan first. that way you don't end up with a tore down car and a **** load of parts that you can't do anything with. Torch, grinder, clamp, & welder and I'll get it done!
Modified by Rien at 4:21 PM 8-5-2003
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1,354 Posts
It's not gonna work...
Some conversations generate light. Some generate heat. Some generate neither.
Nopeity-nope. The 1.8T has entirely different engine mount bosses. You are in for--wait--I am in for--either fabrication or construction of a hybrid engine. I know which route I am taking.
Check out that nifty ABC button on your make-a-post screen. It's to the left of the Quote button and to the right of the Image button. Cool, isn't it?
Actually, a LOT of fab work is nesessary. The Audi A4 suspension is so radically different from the Fox and early Quattros that a whole new chassis would be the fastest and possibly cheapest means of getting this done with A4 suspension. Once I saw the A4 suspension, I decided that a different approach would be better. My original concept, from years ago, for an AWD Fox was a Quantum Syncro drivetrain and an engine adapter. The QSW rear end would be a much better fit for the Fox's rear body. Now, because of the scarcity of shops willing to make a one-off engine adapter, as there is no other use for a 4-cyl engine-to-5-cyl trans adapter, I think the best way would be QSW suspension front subframe and Audi A4 1.8TQ drivetrain. This would require the following mods to the chassis, provided one would stick with the cost-ineffective approach of modifying the existing chassis (please remember, this list is far from complete):
1) Five custom driveshafts
2) Movement of the upper spring positions outward to maintain suspension geometry
3) Front subframe fitment (welding in of new bosses to accept subframe)
4) Engine-to-subframe fitment (5-cyl mounts are different from 4-cyl and 1.8T mounts.)
5) Possible modifications to the subframe to fit the 1.8T oil pan
6) Complete front-to-rear roll cage, as the Fox was never designed to have drive stresses spread across the whole chassis, not was it intended to have 300+ HP
7) Race fuel cell moved somewhere other than factory location to allow fitment of rear end
8) Completely new center hump! You have to fit a driveshaft AND a big exhaust down the center now. You also have to build a new mounting location for the shift linkage.
I'll stop there. Unless you can do it all yourself, this is a $30K project--and that's my cost. I know lots of experts who would help me as much as possible--a Chassis builder, an engine developer, exhaust people, cheap parts sources even for more exotic stiff, like a complete A4 1.8TQ drivetrain, a complete QSW suspension and a nice rust-free Fox good for cutting and welding. (Rusty cars aren't fun to cut and weld.)
Some conversations generate light. Some generate heat. Some generate neither.
| Quote, originally posted by Rien » |
| If I have been told correctly the blocks are the same for the most part. If this is so. then the 1.8t should mount in to exsisting mounts and hardware. |
Nopeity-nope. The 1.8T has entirely different engine mount bosses. You are in for--wait--I am in for--either fabrication or construction of a hybrid engine. I know which route I am taking.
| Quote, originally posted by Rien » |
| A little fab work WILL be nessecery( Could I get a SP on that word Tera?). |
Check out that nifty ABC button on your make-a-post screen. It's to the left of the Quote button and to the right of the Image button. Cool, isn't it?
Actually, a LOT of fab work is nesessary. The Audi A4 suspension is so radically different from the Fox and early Quattros that a whole new chassis would be the fastest and possibly cheapest means of getting this done with A4 suspension. Once I saw the A4 suspension, I decided that a different approach would be better. My original concept, from years ago, for an AWD Fox was a Quantum Syncro drivetrain and an engine adapter. The QSW rear end would be a much better fit for the Fox's rear body. Now, because of the scarcity of shops willing to make a one-off engine adapter, as there is no other use for a 4-cyl engine-to-5-cyl trans adapter, I think the best way would be QSW suspension front subframe and Audi A4 1.8TQ drivetrain. This would require the following mods to the chassis, provided one would stick with the cost-ineffective approach of modifying the existing chassis (please remember, this list is far from complete):
1) Five custom driveshafts
2) Movement of the upper spring positions outward to maintain suspension geometry
3) Front subframe fitment (welding in of new bosses to accept subframe)
4) Engine-to-subframe fitment (5-cyl mounts are different from 4-cyl and 1.8T mounts.)
5) Possible modifications to the subframe to fit the 1.8T oil pan
6) Complete front-to-rear roll cage, as the Fox was never designed to have drive stresses spread across the whole chassis, not was it intended to have 300+ HP
7) Race fuel cell moved somewhere other than factory location to allow fitment of rear end
8) Completely new center hump! You have to fit a driveshaft AND a big exhaust down the center now. You also have to build a new mounting location for the shift linkage.
I'll stop there. Unless you can do it all yourself, this is a $30K project--and that's my cost. I know lots of experts who would help me as much as possible--a Chassis builder, an engine developer, exhaust people, cheap parts sources even for more exotic stiff, like a complete A4 1.8TQ drivetrain, a complete QSW suspension and a nice rust-free Fox good for cutting and welding. (Rusty cars aren't fun to cut and weld.)
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103 Posts
Re: It's not gonna work... (Rien)
oi....the way you guys were talking about it made it seem like a 5K project..i guess my fox dreams were a little too wild for my wallet. and i was also planning on driving it daily..
| Quote, originally posted by Rien » |
| Unless you can do it all yourself, this is a $30K project |
oi....the way you guys were talking about it made it seem like a 5K project..i guess my fox dreams were a little too wild for my wallet. and i was also planning on driving it daily..
Re: It's not gonna work... (Eric Happy Meal)
While at pick-n-pull I looked at some Audi Quattro's. There IRS is all one unit...Suspension and axle assembly all unbolts with 4-bolts.. At least that's what I saw. After looking at the fox's rear-end I decided that it wouldn't be that bad to make a sub-frame which the Audi IRS would Mount up to, I mean bolt up to. AS for the tranny. I'll I need to know is which one will bolt up to the 1.8L 8v and 16v motors. I'd keep the Fox's front Suspension and have cutom CV's built with the Audi Tranny end & fox CV's @ the knuckle. The rear would be all Audi OEM or Performance parts. As for rear drive line. If the Tunnel needs to be enlarged the so be. I'll bend some sheet metal and make a new custom tunnel. I'll have the existing rear drive line, off the Audi, cut to size for the fox. I believe that this could work. So I decided next time It's half price week-end @ pick-n-pull I'm going for a IRS drive axle off a Audi so I can start playing.
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Oh also I guess that Audi AWD systems are fluid controled or electric? Does anyone know what I'm trying to talk about?
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While at pick-n-pull I looked at some Audi Quattro's. There IRS is all one unit...Suspension and axle assembly all unbolts with 4-bolts.. At least that's what I saw. After looking at the fox's rear-end I decided that it wouldn't be that bad to make a sub-frame which the Audi IRS would Mount up to, I mean bolt up to. AS for the tranny. I'll I need to know is which one will bolt up to the 1.8L 8v and 16v motors. I'd keep the Fox's front Suspension and have cutom CV's built with the Audi Tranny end & fox CV's @ the knuckle. The rear would be all Audi OEM or Performance parts. As for rear drive line. If the Tunnel needs to be enlarged the so be. I'll bend some sheet metal and make a new custom tunnel. I'll have the existing rear drive line, off the Audi, cut to size for the fox. I believe that this could work. So I decided next time It's half price week-end @ pick-n-pull I'm going for a IRS drive axle off a Audi so I can start playing.
Re: It's not gonna work... (Rien)
Vaccuum/Electric, if what you're talking about is the center differential lock. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
| Quote, originally posted by Rien » |
| Oh also I guess that Audi AWD systems are fluid controled or electric? Does anyone know what I'm trying to talk about?
|
Vaccuum/Electric, if what you're talking about is the center differential lock. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Re: It's not gonna work... (a1junkie)
Yes!! that's it. Do you know much about these systems? The AWD set-up that I'm trying to configure would use what type? Audi IRS off a 90 or something like that, once again I don't know the exact years I need, but I know what I'm lookin for. In general!
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are these systems self contained in the tranny or diffs. or are external valves and pumps needed for a AWD conversion. I haven't ever tore one down...YET! Or really researched the manuals.
| Quote, originally posted by a1junkie » |
Vaccuum/Electric, if what you're talking about is the center differential lock. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif |
I could work
The ones I looked at were for Quantum Syncro wagons, which is about the same as a 4kQ. If you're doing a sedan, any 4k, and possibly 5k assembly should be fine. If you're doing a Fox wagon, I've been told by QSW owners that you'd want the back end from a wagon, as it's set up for the flat wagon back end. Not sure why that would be, as you'd have to fab a subframe either way.
Anyhow, the vaccuum stuff it a lot like the stuff for cruise, and is tied in to that system. It has its own little diaphragm thingy- mounted down in the muck- where the rubber diaphragm frequently rots and fails.
That's about the extent of my knowledge on the subject. Somewhere I have pictures of a fabbed sub-frame that was done to mount a Quattro rear end on a Rabbit- I'll post if if I find it.
If you're serious about this, I'd pick an appropriate donor car, then get the Bentley manual for it.
The ones I looked at were for Quantum Syncro wagons, which is about the same as a 4kQ. If you're doing a sedan, any 4k, and possibly 5k assembly should be fine. If you're doing a Fox wagon, I've been told by QSW owners that you'd want the back end from a wagon, as it's set up for the flat wagon back end. Not sure why that would be, as you'd have to fab a subframe either way.
Anyhow, the vaccuum stuff it a lot like the stuff for cruise, and is tied in to that system. It has its own little diaphragm thingy- mounted down in the muck- where the rubber diaphragm frequently rots and fails.
That's about the extent of my knowledge on the subject. Somewhere I have pictures of a fabbed sub-frame that was done to mount a Quattro rear end on a Rabbit- I'll post if if I find it.
If you're serious about this, I'd pick an appropriate donor car, then get the Bentley manual for it.
Re: I could work (Rien)
I see some misinformation in this thread that I will clear up right now.
First of all,the early 1.8t motors(up to 99) use the same block style as your 8v.These are a bolt in.
As for the tranny you should be able to use your stock axles and suspension(possible have to put on 100mm inner CVs).Audi 4k shift linkage should work with this tranny and 1.8t clutch system.The only problem I see is the fox has a cable clutch and the audi has a hydraulic unit.
Rear suspension would best come from something similar like a audi 4kq.The only thing I would check first is the ring and pinion on the tranny and rear end.
The rear floor pans of the fox and 4kq are very similar,and it looks like you would just need to weld in some bosses for the mounting points.
Other than that some tunnel modification may be necessary along with some driveshaft shortening.
How do I know all this?First of all I'm a pro mechanic,and second of all I've looked into this already.I've built lots of turbo VWs and ran into tranny issues to many times.The fox has more potential than any other VW in the performance field,because it has the audi desigh going for it.
I see some misinformation in this thread that I will clear up right now.
First of all,the early 1.8t motors(up to 99) use the same block style as your 8v.These are a bolt in.
As for the tranny you should be able to use your stock axles and suspension(possible have to put on 100mm inner CVs).Audi 4k shift linkage should work with this tranny and 1.8t clutch system.The only problem I see is the fox has a cable clutch and the audi has a hydraulic unit.
Rear suspension would best come from something similar like a audi 4kq.The only thing I would check first is the ring and pinion on the tranny and rear end.
The rear floor pans of the fox and 4kq are very similar,and it looks like you would just need to weld in some bosses for the mounting points.
Other than that some tunnel modification may be necessary along with some driveshaft shortening.
How do I know all this?First of all I'm a pro mechanic,and second of all I've looked into this already.I've built lots of turbo VWs and ran into tranny issues to many times.The fox has more potential than any other VW in the performance field,because it has the audi desigh going for it.
Re: I could work (MEATPIPE)
So is there a Audi with AWD & a 1.8L 4cyl with a engine mounted the same way as the fox? Audi 4K? If so I'll go get the bently so I can educate myself. Instead of hear say. So I should be able to keep the foxes 1.8L(for now), use the front suspension of the fox, the Audi tranny should bolt up. Convert to a hydralic clutch using Audi parts, make tranny mount, Fab tunnel cover, Fab in rear-end, Fuel cell(not worried about all the nickel and dime stuff @ this time) adapt the AWD vaccum system, then find some front CV's, weather or not a OEM CV can be used or a custom one. Then after all that Turbo it, or even use the Audi 1.8t? This would require a the ECU and A lot more, but the engine and fuel delevery is already set up for turbo. Any corrections? Please post before I go and buy the wrong manuel.
So is there a Audi with AWD & a 1.8L 4cyl with a engine mounted the same way as the fox? Audi 4K? If so I'll go get the bently so I can educate myself. Instead of hear say. So I should be able to keep the foxes 1.8L(for now), use the front suspension of the fox, the Audi tranny should bolt up. Convert to a hydralic clutch using Audi parts, make tranny mount, Fab tunnel cover, Fab in rear-end, Fuel cell(not worried about all the nickel and dime stuff @ this time) adapt the AWD vaccum system, then find some front CV's, weather or not a OEM CV can be used or a custom one. Then after all that Turbo it, or even use the Audi 1.8t? This would require a the ECU and A lot more, but the engine and fuel delevery is already set up for turbo. Any corrections? Please post before I go and buy the wrong manuel.
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Re: AWD Tranny (Klutched)
although the tread is old the question is still valid
first why would you want a AWD fox
this is simple to answer
they are very light and very ugly
replacement cost for any part you would damage by rallying a fox would be cheap
but what if you dont want it to rally
perhaps you just want the ultimate in traction in a VW an see the inherant faults of any syncro system ( too much weight over the front axles )
it is comon knowledge that the Audi Quattro system is far supirior than any Syncro system put out by VW
the older Audi's are great for traction but very heavy and you are almost stuck with using a 5 cylinder engine that is heavy and an old engine design (unless you use the older S4/S6 engine's).
and if you could afford a newer Audi such as an S4/biturbo than you probably are not looking in theis forum any way.
so i have gone round and round with this question
how do i get VW power and all wheel drive and not have it weigh more than a ton.
the simple answer use the fox it's cheap and light and they arent too ugly toi drive around
now what Quattro system
the 98 A4 has 100 mm flanges and 4.11:1 ring and pinion and it will bolt up to close to any 4 cylinder VW engine
the tunnel needs a little hammer motivated modivication on the passanger side of the tunnel to accomidate the shifting assy of the tranny
as for the rear suspention you use the front subframe of an other fox and rotate it 180 degrees and add the mounts for the rear diff which is from a 4000 quattro which has the same ring and pinion and the same 100 mm flanges and it is also lockable which is nice for drag racing
once the subframe is mounted with much fab work the strut towers must be modified to accept some kind of strut and rear knuckle and rear brakes
this is a very doable project which i am under going i will try to keep evry one interested up to date on the project
although the tread is old the question is still valid
first why would you want a AWD fox
this is simple to answer
they are very light and very ugly
replacement cost for any part you would damage by rallying a fox would be cheap
but what if you dont want it to rally
perhaps you just want the ultimate in traction in a VW an see the inherant faults of any syncro system ( too much weight over the front axles )
it is comon knowledge that the Audi Quattro system is far supirior than any Syncro system put out by VW
the older Audi's are great for traction but very heavy and you are almost stuck with using a 5 cylinder engine that is heavy and an old engine design (unless you use the older S4/S6 engine's).
and if you could afford a newer Audi such as an S4/biturbo than you probably are not looking in theis forum any way.
so i have gone round and round with this question
how do i get VW power and all wheel drive and not have it weigh more than a ton.
the simple answer use the fox it's cheap and light and they arent too ugly toi drive around
now what Quattro system
the 98 A4 has 100 mm flanges and 4.11:1 ring and pinion and it will bolt up to close to any 4 cylinder VW engine
the tunnel needs a little hammer motivated modivication on the passanger side of the tunnel to accomidate the shifting assy of the tranny
as for the rear suspention you use the front subframe of an other fox and rotate it 180 degrees and add the mounts for the rear diff which is from a 4000 quattro which has the same ring and pinion and the same 100 mm flanges and it is also lockable which is nice for drag racing
once the subframe is mounted with much fab work the strut towers must be modified to accept some kind of strut and rear knuckle and rear brakes
this is a very doable project which i am under going i will try to keep evry one interested up to date on the project
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