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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
time for breaks

I took my car in to get breaks. I was told that I need new roters and pads. This is the first time breaks have been done. Is this correct. the cost of the breaks will be 1200.00
 

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Re: time for breaks (wlm)

As we discussed over the phone, I think that sounds pretty close to "just about right". I am doing brakes on an '04 V6 Touareg (fronts) and pads & rotors are running about $1025.
Just wanted to put this out there for anyone else w/ the question in their mind. And, yes, rotors should be done at the same time as pads.
 

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Re: time for breaks (wlm)

Hi Bill:
I guess we should be grateful that the NAR W12 Phaetons got the smaller, two piston front brake assemblies, rather than the huge 8 piston brake assemblies that are installed on the European W12's. I would hate to guess what the cost of refurbishing the 8 piston Brembos would be...
FWIW, below is a photo I took of the front brake pads and rotors on my W12 when the snow tires were being installed. My car had 25,000 km (about 16,000 miles) on it when I took the picture.
Michael
W12 Front Brakes at 16,000 miles (mostly highway travel - to GTG's)
 

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Re: (PhaetonChix)

As an old DIY'er, can't we do this ourselves? No disrespect, but this should be an easy job. I have always done the Benz's and Bimmer's myself.
Regards,
Brent
 

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Re: (W126C)

My thoughts exactly! I'll have to peek at my brakes on my 15K mile 2 day old used Phaeton to see where I stand with respect to brake pad life.
 

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Re: (W126C)

Quote, originally posted by W126C »
As an old DIY'er, can't we do this ourselves?

We probably could, however, my guess is that 90% of the cost is the materials, and labour is only a very small part of the cost. Personally, I'm scared to do any work myself on systems that directly affect safety (engine, wheels, driveline, airbags) - although I don't hesitate to tear the whole inside of the car apart to work on convenience systems, I won't even change my own oil, I always take the car to the dealer to have that done.
I have been known to change a tire from time to time - but then I go to the VW dealer to get them to set the correct torque on the wheel bolts, and to make sure everything else is in order.
Michael
 

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Re: (PanEuropean)

I'm very pleased with the VW service I've had and I trust them. But brakes/rotors are something I have seemed to do at the drop of a hat. No issue. I've change out the ABS sensors on my W126C with no problems. I know the Phaeton is more sophisticated, but the basics are still there. If I would have trouble, I'm sure they would enjoy having to help me out.
Doughnuts and paid invoice. It's just nice to have a good service department. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Regards,
Brent
 

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Re: (PanEuropean)

I believe every profession is subject to the 80/20 rule and, as such, the car technician world is probably a participant to this rule. I know that all of us can think of many, many car maintenance/repair horror stories .. and that thought makes me take control of my own world.
FWIW, I check the torque of the lug nuts if anybody else touches them, I figure I'd rather be safe than sorry. Ask my friend why his wife's car made that horrible noise after her dealer visit involving a tire rotation. Yes, the lug nuts were loose ...
My point is to simply get involved and make sure the job is done according to spec whether via paid mechanic or DIY.
 

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Re: (W126C)

great Thread. If you change the brakes soon enough will you still have the Drum and Rotor issues. It would be nice to avoid the Drums. Brent there are several independents who work on High end German cars in town so brakes are a pretty easy and almost a commodity items. Yes, you have to follow the factory spec but I have seen dealers butcher brakes many times. We do about 5 brake jobs a week on tractors and trailers. So car brakes might not be too tough if you have the right person and parts.
Michael's point is taken like a true pilots view and thats a good one.
 

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Re: (Kcmover)

Quote, originally posted by Kcmover »
If you change the brakes soon enough will you still have the Drum and Rotor issues. It would be nice to avoid the Drums.

What drum issues? Phaetons have four wheel disc brakes. Am I missing something here?
 

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Re: (Kcmover)

Quote, originally posted by Kcmover »
If you change the brakes soon enough will you still have the Drum and Rotor issues.

Larry,
The rotors are, by design, only expected to last the life of the pads. Years ago VW (along with many others, e.g.: Ford, BMW) decided to do away with the issues related with turning rotors. Subsequently, the rotors are designed to last 1.5x pad life (for a little cushion factor) and are engineered in such a way that there is little extra labor for their replacement.
Once the caliper comes off to replace the brake pads, the only thing between rotor removal and you is a set screw. For years, I did pads & rotors. When I transitioned to my present dealership, I found they were "pad slapping" cars, so I figured I'd try it, even though it went against what I knew. Out of the seven cars I "pad slapped", seven came back within 7-10,000 miles for a pulsation while coming to a stop (warped rotors). So...I went back to doing what I knew was the "right" thing.
Sure, it may be incrementally more money. However, as Michael points out, safety-related items such as brakes aren't really a good place to cut corners.
 

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Re: (chrisj428)

Quote, originally posted by chrisj428 »
The rotors are, by design, only expected to last the life of the pads.

The rotors may be expected to last only the life of the pads but are capable of being turned and subsequently maintaining excellent safety. It is far more profitable for a service department to quickly replace the worn rotor with a new rotor than correctly turning the existing rotor.
The Phaeton's rotors are massive - even on the V8 model - and therefore very expensive to replace. Rotors with far less thickness have been safely turned for decades. Over $1000 USD for pads and rotors?!!!
You said changing the rotors is not labor intensive. The pads are not expensive. So I am left to infer from this thread that the bulk of the cost comes from replacing the rotors.
I'm going to get my rotors turned when the time comes.


Modified by iluvmcr at 9:11 PM 12-15-2005
 

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Re: (iluvmcr)

I agree.
I recently had the opportunity to look at front rotors on a V8 Touareg with 25,000 miles on it. The massive rotors were 31 mm thick when new and are currently 29 mm thick. VW book shows minimum thickness to be 26mm.
I'm sure the Phaeton rotors are the same. I highly doubt at 16,000 miles a Phaeton needs rotors. Check the thickness and if good, install new pads and seat the pads in properly during a road test.
Werner
 

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Re: (iluvmcr)

Quote, originally posted by iluvmcr »
It is far more profitable for a service department to quickly replace the worn rotor with a new rotor than correctly turning the existing rotor.

No...I don't charge extra labor for replacing the rotors.
Quote, originally posted by iluvmcr »
You said changing the rotors is not labor intensive. The pads are not expensive. So I am left to infer from this thread that the bulk of the cost comes from replacing the rotors.

Parts are a significant part of the equation. However, there is labor involved. I would expect there would be even more labor involved for the technician to attach the rotors to the lathe, set it up and supervise its operation since that takes more time than replacing them.
Quote, originally posted by iluvmcr »
I'm going to get my rotors turned when the time comes.

Good luck. In five years, I have never seen a set of VW rotors turned. My understanding is the composition of the material makes for an unturnable product -- hence their "disposable" nature.
Quote, originally posted by iluvmcr »
Over $1000 USD for pads and rotors?!!!

I think back to an old boss of mine, Bob Buffington. I learned many many things from him. One thing he taught me was "You play, you pay." This car isn't a Golf. It doesn't have Golf brakes. Given that a Phaeton's roughly 3x the price of a Golf, it's not unreasonable to expect the brakes would be priced accordingly. You're not going to get the oil changed in the car for $29.95 after the warranty's out, why would you expect to get the brakes done for $250????
 

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Re: (chrisj428)

I had a quick look at the specifications for the different parts used in the brake system of the Phaeton.
The North American Region (NAR) Phaetons are equipped with 18 inch front brakes, 360 x 34 mm rotors, and the production code for this equipment is 1ZK. NAR Phaetons are also equipped with 17 inch rear disc brakes with 310 x 22 mm rotors. The production code is 1KP.
The NAR V8 and the NAR W12 have the same brake components at both the front and rear of the vehicle. Be aware that the with the single exception of the rear brakes on the V8 (which are the same everywhere in the world), different brake specifications are used for ROW production Phaetons.
Respecting the NAR components, the Phaeton service manual states that 3 mm of wear is allowed on the front rotors - in other words, the new rotor width is 34 mm, and the service wear limit is 31 mm. The rear rotor is 22 mm thick when new and has a service wear limit of 20 mm - in other words, 2 mm of wear is allowed.
The rule of thumb that I follow when replacing brake rotors on aircraft (something I am comfortable with doing, because I am appropriately trained and licensed to do that) is that if the disc (the rotor) is still within allowable wear limits, but does not have enough remaining thickness to last for the foreseeable life of the new pads, I replace the rotor. To leave the existing rotor in service would be false economy - I would need to tear the system down to replace it before the new pads wore out. I follow the same rule of thumb with brake pad replacement on my motorcycle. The tires on my moto last about 10,000 km (6,000 miles) - if the moto technician tells me that the pads have less than 10,000 km of foreseeable service life remaining when he is changing the tires, then I ask him to toss a new set of pads on at the same time, so I don't end up needing to bring the moto in for a brake pad replacement halfway through the tire life. There is no additional labour charge to replace brake pads at the same time that the wheel is off for tire replacement - however, it is about a 2 hour labour charge to re and re the wheel for the sole purpose of replacing brake pads.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we have to look at the whole issue of component wear in the context of 'lowest overall parts and labour expense'. Sometimes it is less expensive to replace a single component before it reaches its service wear limit than it is to let the component serve its full life, but then have to disassemble things twice (as opposed to once) to when that component wears out.
I am going to my VW dealer this afternoon, I will try to get some prices for these different brake components (pads, rotors). That way, we can all make our own educated decisions about the 'parts vs. additional labour' cost-benefit question.
Michael
 

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Re: (PanEuropean)

Many thanks to Blaine, the Parts Department Manager at my VW dealership, for supplying us with the information below. The prices indicated are full list in Canadian dollars. I have converted them to USD using prevailing exchange rates, however, the actual price at the American dealerships might be slightly different - I doubt if the US dollar price is derived from the CAD price, probably it works the other way around!
Note that the discs (rotors) are sold individually, but the pads are sold in sets of four. One set of pads is sufficient to do the entire front end or entire rear end of the car.
The technicians at my VW dealership told me that discs are never machined (refinished), because the type of lightweight disc used in cars today does not have sufficient excess material on it to allow machining. When a disc is machined, it will normally lose about 0.75 mm from each side (meaning, 1.5 mm total thickness) - and the difference between the thickness of a new, unused disc and the service wear limit on that same disc is only 2 or 3 mm total. In other words, there is not sufficient material there to allow for refinishing of the disc. This new type of lightweight disc began to become commonplace around the end of the 1980s.
Michael
Phaeton Front Brakes

Phaeton Rear Brakes
 

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Re: (PanEuropean)

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »
Many thanks to Blaine, the Parts Department Manager at my VW dealership,

And many thanks to you Michael and Chris. What an education this whole thing has been. Just a new way, for me, of thinking about brakes. I guess I should be taking more Continuing ED and try harder to keep up with all the changes.
It's the darn cell phone that takes up all my time now.

Regards,
Brent
 
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