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....and?

If posted just for viewing...I don't now what to think.
Cam Follower wear varies for each engine, if it has a HPFP upgrade or not, and the pressure target if tuned. And; brand of oil used and duration of time it is run near its maximum rail pressure request. And, the amount of wear on the tri-lobe. And, .........

Showing us a CF with 25k miles and the black DLC is just beginning to wear off...with many more details, or a question, would help me understand what the point is.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I don’t know what to think either! Seems like its in pretty good shape, minimal wear. Kinda just posted it as a reference in case someone ever wanted to look up what a it looks like after that many miles.

Also it was run at 100% hpfp duty cycle for like 6 months or more, as I had a bad rail sensor causing it to cap at 80 bar for a while there. Anything above 10% throttle or so and it would whine as it maxed out the pump.

Cam lobe wear looks next to none and fuel pressures are normal, so this would be wear under less than ideal conditions due to the high hpfp demand for a while.

For a while I was doing Rotella T6 every 5k miles but the pricepoint changed so now I do liquimoly every 5k. Mostly highway or fast country road miles, PNW mild climate.

IIRC it was only a certain batch of engines that had faulty metallurgy in their camshafts anyways, right?
 

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I don’t know what to think either! Seems like its in pretty good shape, minimal wear. Kinda just posted it as a reference in case someone ever wanted to look up what a it looks like after that many miles.

Also it was run at 100% hpfp duty cycle for like 6 months or more, as I had a bad rail sensor causing it to cap at 80 bar for a while there. Anything above 10% throttle or so and it would whine as it maxed out the pump.

Cam lobe wear looks next to none and fuel pressures are normal, so this would be wear under less than ideal conditions due to the high hpfp demand for a while.

For a while I was doing Rotella T6 every 5k miles but the pricepoint changed so now I do liquimoly every 5k. Mostly highway or fast country road miles, PNW mild climate.

IIRC it was only a certain batch of engines that had faulty metallurgy in their camshafts anyways, right?
The "faulty metallurgy" is a BS excuse for using a flawed design. The harder cam lobe just means won't be as damaged as it would be if the plunger were to make direct contact.
 

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Ok then why do some wear profusely while others don’t, given comparable usage and consistent oil changes? And flat tappet cams have been in existence forever and last a very very long time... mind the oil did require ZDDP in excess, but still. Or maybe the real issue is the people who have the issues dont want to admit they didn’t do proper maintenance... That said, I agree that the design is flawed as the recommended oil is not made for flat tappets, even if this is only a fuel pump tappet.
 

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Ok then why do some wear profusely while others don’t, given comparable usage and consistent oil changes? And flat tappet cams have been in existence forever and last a very very long time... mind the oil did require ZDDP in excess, but still. Or maybe the real issue is the people who have the issues dont want to admit they didn’t do proper maintenance... That said, I agree that the design is flawed as the recommended oil is not made for flat tappets, even if this is only a fuel pump tappet.
WHen you "upgrade" the HPFP, the spring on the plunger is much stiffer, so more load is applied onto the cam follower. With the APR upgrade, iirc, they recommend inspecting the cam follower every 10,000 miles.

Originally the people who had issues did do proper maintenance, however, it is the fault of VW for not including the inspect & replacement of the cam follower in the maintenance manual.
 

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I don’t know what to think either! Seems like its in pretty good shape, minimal wear. Kinda just posted it as a reference in case someone ever wanted to look up what a it looks like after that many miles.

Also it was run at 100% hpfp duty cycle for like 6 months or more, as I had a bad rail sensor causing it to cap at 80 bar for a while there. Anything above 10% throttle or so and it would whine as it maxed out the pump.

Cam lobe wear looks next to none and fuel pressures are normal, so this would be wear under less than ideal conditions due to the high hpfp demand for a while.

For a while I was doing Rotella T6 every 5k miles but the pricepoint changed so now I do liquimoly every 5k. Mostly highway or fast country road miles, PNW mild climate.

IIRC it was only a certain batch of engines that had faulty metallurgy in their camshafts anyways, right?
OK, yes...higher rail pressure will accelerate wear. Not only do higher spring rate apply pressure on the tri-lobe...but the higher pressure of the HPFP piston does as well. Every HPFP upgrade is different and builds pressure at different levels. Some are capable of 50% more, 60% more or 75% more pressure and this increase is also applied to the tri-lobe. All of this is why all need to recognize cam follower wear must be learned by each owner.
I assume the HPFP is not upgraded....but it is tuned? Rail pressure target maximum is??? 120 bar? Or is its HPFP stock with a 110 bar max target?
Oil is good...I too live in the PNW.

CF fear is bad on the MK5 GTI UK site...they have a few people always telling people the CF must be changed every oil service or 8k or 10k miles. They don't even ask if the car is tuned or has a HPFP upgrade. What the rail pressure target is. How it is driven. But once modified and tuned...each driver must learn for themselves how long their CF lasts before losing a bit of coating. You can only provide a guideline; HPFP upgrade and tune depends on the target pressure = probably lasts 8k to 15k miles. Tuned with no HPFP upgrade...again depends on the rail target and duration the rail pressure is at near max pressure = 20k to 40k or more miles (but who knows really).

The "certain batch of engines" issue...was cam followers failing and some, if not all, may have been tuned. So the cam followers were failing and the Service Interval booklet had no mention of inspecting the cam follower at all. So VW blamed this on a soft tri-lobe of the version-A intake cam and extended the warranty on the intake cam and resulting damage to 120k miles/10yrs. They sent out extension notifications to those in the US with a version-A intake cam. But really...most of the failures were due to tuning and/or HPFP upgrades and lack of attention. Once tuned and rail pressure was increased...the CFs were not going to last over 100k miles. Mine fell into the extension. My VW dealer shop upgraded the HPFP and did the K04 install for me. I thought a new CF had been installed and I thought I had 10k miles to go before swapping it. But the shop put the original back in and it went another 5800 miles and the original CF failed. The shop ran it under warranty and replaced the cam with the version-B and a new HPFP for me. But I had to get another HPFP upgrade.
 

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I feel like that the mileage interval can really vary depending on the quality of the follower used as well. It seems like many of the replacements don't last as long.
 

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Yes, it does. I have yet to use non-OE followers. But if you use aftermarket CFs...it may be best to stick with the same maker each swap.
 

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OK, yes...higher rail pressure will accelerate wear. Not only do higher spring rate apply pressure on the tri-lobe...but the higher pressure of the HPFP piston does as well. Every HPFP upgrade is different and builds pressure at different levels.
How many different HPFP upgrades are there? Seems like Autotech, APR, JHM and IE are the main ones... APR and JHM have a replacement spring, I think the other two re-use the OEM spring.

Side question: How difficult is it to upgrade this yourself? I bought the Autotech upgrade kit since it was pretty well priced at $450 CAD, but wondering now if I shouldn't have just bought an already rebuilt upgrade pump instead as it seems to be a rather careful job with very close tolerances, to upgrade it.

CF fear is bad on the MK5 GTI UK site...they have a few people always telling people the CF must be changed every oil service or 8k or 10k miles. They don't even ask if the car is tuned or has a HPFP upgrade. What the rail pressure target is. How it is driven. But once modified and tuned...each driver must learn for themselves how long their CF lasts before losing a bit of coating. You can only provide a guideline; HPFP upgrade and tune depends on the target pressure = probably lasts 8k to 15k miles. Tuned with no HPFP upgrade...again depends on the rail target and duration the rail pressure is at near max pressure = 20k to 40k or more miles (but who knows really).
I bought a 2013 TT-S (so pretty late production EA113) with 185k km (115k mi) on it and when I removed the follower the coating has only worn off a bit--more than OP's image but doesn't really look too bad. I am changing it (along with a lot of other maint. items) but I wonder myself how long it has been on there. The car was originally leased and dealer serviced about half those miles so I was able to get all the service info--the follower was never changed during those four years. The second owner was a female and though I'm fairly certain the spark plugs were changed at some point (because the ones in there are nearly new condition), not sure if/when the follower was changed from the original. The mechanic who did the PPI before I bought the car (an Audi/VW specialist shop) suggested it could actually be the original follower which is really surprising if it lasted that long. That would sure put the fear-mongering "change it every oil change" mantra in question.

When should the follower be replaced though? After the coating wears off or when the follower face is starting to wear more? Does the follower start wearing rapidly after the coating is gone or does it continue to wear gradually?

Mine fell into the extension. My VW dealer shop upgraded the HPFP and did the K04 install for me. I thought a new CF had been installed and I thought I had 10k miles to go before swapping it. But the shop put the original back in and it went another 5800 miles and the original CF failed. The shop ran it under warranty and replaced the cam with the version-B and a new HPFP for me. But I had to get another HPFP upgrade.
Wow. You def. got lucky on that as in today's "more actively applying TD1" environment I think you'd have been screwed on that as the dealer would have no control over it. Before even that though it's pretty ridiculous anyone doing that work would have gone ahead and put the same follower back in🤦‍♂️ Just another reason I don't trust shops to touch my car(s)--total bonehead thing to do. I mean to put a K04 on a BPY motor you'd have to upgrade the injectors as well right? So let's see change turbo, change injectors, rebuild fuel pump...do all that and leave the original (almost certainly visibly-worn) follower? Really? I wouldn't trust those guys to change a lug bolt. I mean that's unless it was perfectly fine and took only 5k miles to wear out after the upgrade, which is a possibility I suppose.
 

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How many different HPFP upgrades are there? Seems like Autotech, APR, JHM and IE are the main ones... APR and JHM have a replacement spring, I think the other two re-use the OEM spring. VIS (Romania) also...but yeah, there may be more. VIS can only be found on ebay for here in the states, I believe...and there are said to be clones.


Side question: How difficult is it to upgrade this yourself? I bought the Autotech upgrade kit since it was pretty well priced at $450 CAD, but wondering now if I shouldn't have just bought an already rebuilt upgrade pump instead as it seems to be a rather careful job with very close tolerances, to upgrade it. It easy enough. I don't recommend doing it on a HPFP with more than 40k or 50k miles using Autotech...or any HPFP upgrade which doesn't come with a piston retainer nut included. Because you are rebuilding a HPFP with well used seals inside the retainer nut (pic below). You just slide out the stock HPFP piston and remove the retainer nut and piston cylinder. Give the retainer nut a fuel bath and correctly install the Autotech piston and cylinder. Torque for the retainder nut is 42 lb*ft. Then add the spring, the spring retainer/cap, and 2 pc collet. Prress on the piston a few times to confirm it will move inward and out. There are two seals inside this ↓ ...a quad-ring and another press in type.
nut.png



I bought a 2013 TT-S (so pretty late production EA113) with 185k km (115k mi) on it and when I removed the follower the coating has only worn off a bit--more than OP's image but doesn't really look too bad. I am changing it (along with a lot of other maint. items) but I wonder myself how long it has been on there. The car was originally leased and dealer serviced about half those miles so I was able to get all the service info--the follower was never changed during those four years. The second owner was a female and though I'm fairly certain the spark plugs were changed at some point (because the ones in there are nearly new condition), not sure if/when the follower was changed from the original. The mechanic who did the PPI before I bought the car (an Audi/VW specialist shop) suggested it could actually be the original follower which is really surprising if it lasted that long. That would sure put the fear-mongering "change it every oil change" mantra in question.

When should the follower be replaced though? After the coating wears off or when the follower face is starting to wear more? Does the follower start wearing rapidly after the coating is gone or does it continue to wear gradually? Right when you see the black coating is wearing away...usually happens near the center. If driven esily and not tuned... the cam follower will last to 110k to 120k miles sometimes...but I've seen some worn completely through before 110k miles when stock. Yes, it wears faster when the metal is exposed to the tri-lobe on the cam.


Wow. You def. got lucky on that as in today's "more actively applying TD1" environment I think you'd have been screwed on that as the dealer would have no control over it. Before even that though it's pretty ridiculous anyone doing that work would have gone ahead and put the same follower back in🤦‍♂️ I know...and I assumed so it was my fault as much or more than theirs. Just another reason I don't trust shops to touch my car(s)--total bonehead thing to do. I mean to put a K04 on a BPY motor you'd have to upgrade the injectors as well right? Yes So let's see change turbo, change injectors, rebuild fuel pump...do all that and leave the original (almost certainly visibly-worn) follower? Really? I wouldn't trust those guys to change a lug bolt. I mean that's unless it was perfectly fine and took only 5k miles to wear out after the upgrade, which is a possibility I suppose.
It looked fine they said...but I had the supposedly soft version-A cam. Which prompted the 10yr 120k mile extension here. Plus...I was banging on it often and taking it to the 1/4 mile strip right after the K04 was added. It's a small town VW Dealer/shop. One tech and one helper. He's a great tech and so is the helper now. They said they would do all of the work for the K04 at employee rate - 50% less, and they did. They did following services the same and parts at 5% over cost. I later found out the service manager had put me in the computer as his borther in law. And they were happy to help and run the cam and HPFP under warranty. Very nice guys. Much different than all of the other VW dealers around.
 
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Thanks for the info/tips. That would be a problem though, the mention of over 50k mi because the car is more than double that... Already bought the upgrade though so maybe I'll just see how it works out unless you can get that nut/seals separately elsewhere?

Funny enough I've seen a video on YT that literally shows the whole thing being done in just minutes though others have seemed to take a good bit longer. Seems also some ppl have had major issues after self-upgrading but I'll cross my fingers and try my best I guess!
 

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Thanks for the info/tips. That would be a problem though, the mention of over 50k mi because the car is more than double that... Already bought the upgrade though so maybe I'll just see how it works out unless you can get that nut/seals separately elsewhere? I have not yet seen someone who sells the retainer with seals in it. Except when included in their own HPFP upgrade kit.

Funny enough I've seen a video on YT that literally shows the whole thing being done in just minutes though others have seemed to take a good bit longer. Seems also some ppl have had major issues after self-upgrading but I'll cross my fingers and try my best I guess! Instructions for the Autotech instruct you to take the HPFP completely apart for cleaning. Not necessary with a new to slightly used pump. With an older pump it may be wise to do so. The last one I rebuilt for an acquaintance took a bit over an hour...spending some of that time talking about what I was doing and his future maintenance.
Remember;
When the nut is removed...give it a bath in fuel.
When inserting the new Autotech piston into the retainer nut there are two seals....
the first seal the piston will go through is a dual or single lip shaft seal like this;
seal1.png



The second it will go through is a quad ring like this;
seal2.png


.....proceed gently when attempting to pass the piston through each. They are old in yours and may be a bit brittle besides being worn. Dip the new piston in clean engine oil first.
 
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