VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum banner
  • Rejoining the VWVortex Community - Please review the following thread: Here

381 - 397 of 397 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
Try taking your own advice. For example:



:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

it's literally cataloguing information from broadest --> most specific. You know, like genre --> artist --> album --> song. Or the ISO-8601 date format YYYY-MM-DD. You projecting some sociopolitical insight onto it is absurd.
Sure, that's exactly what's going on there:screwy:

Have you ever been to Japan? Met Japanese businessmen? Do you know how they introduce themselves? COMPANY, LAST NAME, FIRST NAME

Are they cataloguing there as well? Give me a break.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
654 Posts
That changes nothing. And it doesn't even have to be under extreme pressure. Some people confess for notoriety. Fact is, even if a person confesses, that doesn't mean the crime has been solved. The police still have to verify what they're saying with the facts. A false confession, whether under duress or given willingly, can be just as readily dismissed by police or prosecutors. Only the lazy or corrupt would let the innocent go to jail. What Ghosn did were financial crimes. They were complicated and they implicated his family and many associates. There was no way he wasn't going to fight. But that doesn't change the fact that what he did was illegal. And just because Japan is different doesn't give him the right to abscond.
Ohh please. If you aren't privy to information that some top level execs in Nissan and the Japanese court system are, then I'm not sure you can be judge and jury about what's illegal and what's not. It isn't proven, it's an allegation - and the fact also is, that Nissan hadn't paid him the money - it was deferred to an unspecified future date as possible/potential compensation. Didn't happen. This is not Minority Report. The whole thing stinks because there's clearly something fishy in there. Like how Hiroto Saikawa did exactly the same thing as Ghosn, but isn't in jail by your logic?

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
Ohh please. If you aren't privy to information that some top level execs in Nissan and the Japanese court system are, then I'm not sure you can be judge and jury about what's illegal and what's not. It isn't proven, it's an allegation - and the fact also is, that Nissan hadn't paid him the money - it was deferred to an unspecified future date as possible/potential compensation. Didn't happen. This is not Minority Report. The whole thing stinks because there's clearly something fishy in there. Like how Hiroto Saikawa did exactly the same thing as Ghosn, but isn't in jail by your logic?

Saikawa wasn't getting paid by each and every Nissian subsidiary. Also, if Ghosn is so innocent, how come he doesn't travel to France? He's a French citizen, after all and France does not extradite it's citizens. The reason, is because he's wanted for questioning there as well regarding shenanigans wrt Renault. Lots and lots of smoke, but you don't think there is any fire? Come on...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
654 Posts
Saikawa wasn't getting paid by each and every Nissian subsidiary. Also, if Ghosn is so innocent, how come he doesn't travel to France? He's a French citizen, after all and France does not extradite it's citizens. The reason, is because he's wanted for questioning there as well regarding shenanigans wrt Renault. Lots and lots of smoke, but you don't think there is any fire? Come on...
Now you're changing tack from guilty to merely suspect. I didn't say Ghosn was clean. What I said is the charges against him in Japan are obviously manufactured and he is presumed innocent until proven guilty by law. He is also under investigation in France but has not yet been charged with any crime in the country. He will not face extradition if he does go to France. At the same time, his millions will last much longer in Beirut than Paris - and even though he was boss for decades of Renault-Nissan and Michelin, he isn't a billionaire - his wealth isn't cash, so it will deplete while he fights his case. Time zone wise, his decision makes absolute sense while his lawyers wrangle a deal. For other points - Saikawa wasn't boss of all subsidiaries, just CEO of Nissan, so why would he get paid from all subsidiaries. This is a common feature in conglomerates - see Samsung, Tata, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
Now you're changing tack from guilty to merely suspect. I didn't say Ghosn was clean. What I said is the charges against him in Japan are obviously manufactured and he is presumed innocent until proven guilty by law. He is also under investigation in France but has not yet been charged with any crime in the country. He will not face extradition if he does go to France. At the same time, his millions will last much longer in Beirut than Paris - and even though he was boss for decades of Renault-Nissan and Michelin, he isn't a billionaire - his wealth isn't cash, so it will deplete while he fights his case. Time zone wise, his decision makes absolute sense while his lawyers wrangle a deal. For other points - Saikawa wasn't boss of all subsidiaries, just CEO of Nissan, so why would he get paid from all subsidiaries. This is a common feature in conglomerates - see Samsung, Tata, etc.
Samsung and Tata are run by scions, not professional managers who have no business pillaging every permutation of the firm to line their pockets. And, no, I'm not changing tact. I was talking about France. What Ghosn did in France was less corrupt than what happened in Japan. Besides, he was doing Macron's bidding so they certainly aren't going to come out and charge him with anything now that's he's fallen. What they have done, however is said 'Oh yeah, we've been wanting to ask you about these transactions.' Note that they never brought it up before, only now that he's fallen do they remember his transgressions. Either way, he won't be shipped off to Japan when in France so it makes no sense (to me) why he doesn't leave such a dangerous and crumbling area for the relative calm of France. If I had to guess, I think it's because he knows that the financial crimes he's under suspicion for in France are not unlike those in Japan so people will suspect his guilt. He's worried about his brand/reputation. His money may last longer in Lebanon but Lebanon is going through a severe economic crisis and anything could happen. One thing that rich people don't like is instability. Your sycophants could turn on you at any moment. That country's government is a carefully balanced agreement between the various tribal and religious concerns and it may just take one incident to blow the whole thing up.
 

·
Premium Member
Vermonter ~ '20 Si Sedan – '94 Miata – '16 RAV4
Joined
·
35,512 Posts
Nissan sues Carlos Ghosn for $95 million in damages
It's more 'sinister intent' from Nissan, he says
Reuters
Nov 13th 2020 at 9:04AM

TOKYO — Ousted Nissan Motor Chairman Carlos Ghosn's legal woes deepened on Friday with the start of a civil trial in Yokohama, Japan, where his former employer is seeking $95 million in damages.

"The legal actions initiated today form part of Nissan's policy of holding Ghosn accountable for the harm and financial losses incurred by the company due to (his) misconduct," Nissan said in a statement.
continues: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/11/13...-nissan-95-million/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,318 Posts
This is an interesting take:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Greg-Kelly-s-prosecutors-have-painted-themselves-into-a-corner

The way in which Ghosn and Kelly were arrested and detained has already exposed Japan's justice system to deserved criticism.

The prosecutors' first wrong turn was to accept President Saikawa's invitation to use the criminal code to stage a palace coup against Ghosn and his plan to merge Nissan into Renault. For a First World country, this was an alarming abuse of state power to take sides in what should have been a non-criminal shareholder and corporate governance issue.

The prolonged detention of Ghosn and Kelly on technical charges to induce a confession or pry out evidence of additional wrongdoing exposed to the world Japan's hostage justice system at odds with basic protections for criminal suspects such as habeas corpus and the right against self-incrimination.

Now the prosecutors have painted themselves into a corner that can only shed more bad light on the quality of justice in Japan. After five weeks in detention without bond as an unindicted suspect for a non-violent crime, nearly two years of waiting between initial arrest and commencement of the trial, Greg Kelly is facing a marathon trial the defense costs of which he must fund out of his own life's savings.

Whether they like or not, the plot reversal of Ghosn's escape has sent the prosecutors up a tree from which they can no longer climb down. Do not expect a happy ending.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,416 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
They are going to have an interesting time trying to collect on that judgment.
Well, if he had assets in Japan that were frozen, he can kiss those goodbye. And if Nissan decides to sue him in Europe and/or America, he'll have less and less places to park his cash or even travel. I think this is getting very personal for both parties. They're suing each other all around the world but Ghosn is too afraid to leave Lebanon. His jet-setting days are long gone. He's now not unlike a drug lord, safe in his redoubt but can't really spend his money as he'd like.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
Either way, whether Ghosn and Kelly are guilty or innocent, the manner in which it's all be conducted is bad for business , at least for foreigners working in Japan. If the intent was to ensure no foreigners ever wish to run a Japanese company, which it may well have been, then they are succeeding at it.
I don't think many, if any, foreigners are thinking along those lines. There are still a lot of foreign workers in Japan, and some that run firms there. With that said, when in Rome... No one should mistake Japan for America or Europe. The people are super nice, hardworking, clean and highly intelligent. But they have their ways and, if you really want to succeed, you will need advisors. These advisors will advise you on what and what not to do. Ignore your advisors and you will have problems. No different from any other place, really. In America, there are certain taboo subjects. While you won't be hauled off to jail by talking about them, you can just as easily lose your job because of cancel culture or the twitter mob.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
A nice tidy article on the escape is at the WSJ

https://www.wsj.com/articles/father...s-ghosn-escape-await-fate-in-jail-11605886816

My take? Mr Taylor, a former Special Forces soldier, is a whiny little bitch. He complains about the American and Japanese judicial system. Dude, don't rig bids and then bribe FBI agents. Also, don't abscond criminals awaiting trial. They also complain about the 99% conviction rate in Japan. Well, it's 93% in America and the Japanese have to meet a much higher threshold. So, it's a wash. Seriously, these guys should've been prepared for the consequences. You can't not think that far ahead on a huge risk like this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
654 Posts
So apart from Reisner above, who comes across as a Japanese prosecutors' shrill, it seems the rest of the civilized world doesn't agree.

Bloomberg

Ghosn’s Arrests Called ‘Extrajudicial Abuse’ by UN Panel
By Hugo Miller
November 23, 2020, 4:36 AM EST (Updated on: November 23, 2020, 7:40 AM EST)

  • Ex-Nissan chairman’s arrests ‘fundamentally unfair:’ UN panel
  • Ghosn, who fled Japan in a box in December, is now in Lebanon

Carlos Ghosn is escorted from Tokyo Detention House following his release on bail in March 2019.

Carlos Ghosn is escorted from Tokyo Detention House following his release on bail in March 2019 | Photographer: Behrouz Mehri/AFP/Getty Images

Carlos Ghosn’s detention for almost 130 days in a Japanese jail was neither necessary nor reasonable and violated the former Nissan Motor Co. chairman’s human rights, a UN panel concluded in a harsh critique of Tokyo prosecutors who led the case against him.


The decision to arrest Ghosn four times in a row so as to extend his detention was “fundamentally unfair,” the United Nations Human Rights Council’s Working Group on Arbitrary Detention said in a report Monday posted on its website. The panel said that it would refer the case to the UN’s rapporteur on torture, cruel and other inhuman or degrading treatment.



“The repeated arrest of Mr. Ghosn appears to be an abuse of process intended to ensure that he remained in custody,” the panel said, pointing out that on at least two occasions he was arrested for the same alleged crime, only for a different time period. “This revolving pattern of detention was an extrajudicial abuse of process that can have no legal basis under international law.”



Ghosn and former Nissan director Greg Kelly were arrested in Tokyo on Nov. 19, 2018, and accused of underreporting the former chairman’s compensation. Both have denied wrongdoing. Additional charges were filed later accusing Ghosn of using company assets improperly, which he has also denied.


Ghosn made a daring escape from Japan to Lebanon hidden inside a large box aboard a private jet in late December. It was, Ghosn argued defiantly in Beirut later, the only way for him to avoid what he called trumped-up charges of financial misdeeds concocted with the help of his former Nissan colleagues. His arrest and removal as chairman of Nissan, Renault SA and Mitsubishi Motors Corp. shook the foundations of the automaking alliance he built and triggered management and operational turmoil.

Read more: Trains, Planes and Audacity: Ghosn’s 5,400 Mile Escape to Beirut
While Ghosn is unlikely to ever face trial or detention in Japan, the report could be relevant for several ongoing legal proceedings related to the former auto executive. The most immediate potential impact may be on the impending extradition from the U.S. of former Green Beret Michael Taylor and his son Peter, who are sought by Japanese prosecutors for their role in helping Ghosn escape the country.
Read more: Ghosn’s Alleged Accomplices Say Japan Would ‘Torture’ Them

The UN group’s report is another embarrassing setback for the Japanese government, which was caught off guard when Ghosn slipped surveillance and fled the country.
Although Japanese prosecutors typically win 99% of their cases, mostly through confessions obtained during detention, the country has insisted that it has a proper legal system that doesn’t ignore human rights, rejecting accusations that it practices “hostage justice.” In 2019, French President Emmanuel Macron told then-Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe that he felt Ghosn’s detention was “too long and too hard.”
“We welcome a courageous decision from an independent and respected authority, that undeniably establishes Mr. Ghosn’s detention was arbitrary, he was denied his right to impartial justice, and his treatment was unfair and degrading.” his lawyers, Francois Zimeray and Jessica Finelle, said in a statement.
The Japanese government called the decision “totally unacceptable” as well as not legally binding. The panel was wrong in saying that Ghosn was arrested and held four times without being brought before a judge and that the “provision of opportunities” to challenge his detention before a judge was delayed, according to the government’s statement.
“Japan therefore deeply regrets that the Working Group continued to consider the case and rendered opinions based on limited information and biased allegations from the source, not based on accurate understanding on Japan’s criminal justice system,” it said in the statement.

A representative for Nissan declined to comment.
The UN group also concluded that his fourth, early-morning arrest surrounded by paparazzi and his appearance in handcuffs and waist retentions, denied him the right to a fair trial because it made him look like a dangerous criminal. Lastly, the panel said, he was regularly subject to daily, five-hour interrogation sessions while his conversations with his lawyers were non-confidential and limited to 30 minutes, denying him the right to a proper defense.
To be sure, the UN panel said its conclusions on his detention weren’t a comment on his escape from Japan and “should not be construed as condoning or offering any justification for such a departure.”

The UN panel is the same one which said WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange’s rights had been violated during his seven-year stay at Ecuador’s embassy in London because he faced arrest by police if he left the premises, an opinion criticized by lawyers.
Ghosn still has a lawsuit against Nissan for 15 million euros ($18 million) as part of a Dutch wrongful dismissal lawsuit over his firing. Nissan has counter-sued in Japan for 10 billion yen ($96 million) in damages, seeking to recover what it alleges were monetary damages inflicted on the company by Ghosn “as a result of years of his misconduct and fraudulent activity.”
What may change both suits is the UN’s own bold decision to both urge an independent investigation into the circumstances of Ghosn’s detention and recommend his right to sue for damages.
“Taking into account all the circumstances of the case, the appropriate remedy would be to accord Mr. Ghosn an enforceable right to compensation and other reparations, in accordance with international law,” the panel said.

— With assistance by Chris Elser

(Adds Japanese government statement in 10th paragraph)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
So apart from Reisner above, who comes across as a Japanese prosecutors' shrill, it seems the rest of the civilized world doesn't agree.
So this is what the UN is doing now? Investigating Ghosn's arrest? Where were they a couple of years ago when someone knocked the mirror off my car? It's such a worthless organization. If the UN disappeared tomorrow nobody would notice or care.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
654 Posts
So this is what the UN is doing now? Investigating Ghosn's arrest? Where were they a couple of years ago when someone knocked the mirror off my car? It's such a worthless organization. If the UN disappeared tomorrow nobody would notice or care.
Quit man. It's okay, really.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,028 Posts
FWIW a lot of what Reisner points out matches my experience here. Hell, I agree with him on many points. I also agree with the UN's findings. The whole situation is highly irregular. Normally one's executive path here is a quiet rise to a corner office or in more conservative companies, the slightly larger desk at the end of a row of workers. High-profile executives who need to be outed for one reason or another are usually transferred to a subsidiary or in the case of expats at foreign firms, rotated to another country. High-profile cases involving financial wrongdoing occur on a depressingly regular basis, but have never elicited the amount of interest Ghosn has. There are loads of reasons for this, and my own personal bias against Nissan leads me to believe that they asked the gov't to do the dirty work for them because they didn't have the balls to handle Ghosn themselves.

The only other recent case that comes to mind is the Olympus scandal and Mr. Woodford's challenges. IIRC he fled to Hong Kong out of his own personal paranoia, not because Olympus was plotting to have him arrested. It's been awhile since I read his book.

I think it works both ways, depending on the individuals involved. Think about the case of Julie Hamp, who was arrested in Tokyo on suspicion of smuggling Oxycodone to herself as "necklaces". Somehow, through the magic of a few phone calls, she gets released without being charged or convicted. I have a hard time imagining a Japanese executive receiving that kind of treatment. Her case still infuriates my colleagues and me to this day.
 
381 - 397 of 397 Posts
Top