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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have an 83 Rabbit GTI .
I also have a 1.8 16V from
an 87 GTI 16V that I parted out.
Question is can I put the 1.8 16V
into the Rabbit GTI, leaving the
CIS intact?
Or does it need to be switched
to CIS-E.
This is going to be a play / work car.
It is not going to be auto crossed
or drag raced.
 

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Re: CIS 16V ? (greenburrick16v)

I'm going to try the same thing in my car. I've got a 2.0L 16v that I'm about to drop in, and I want to keep my CIS for the time being (until turbo comes
) What everyone has told me is that it can be done. The only thing you need to do apparently is get an ignition distributor from a Sabb900. The distributors on those cars will fit the 16v head, but they have a vacuum advance canister which is need for the CIS system. You also need to be careful with your timing to make sure your aren't getting engine ping, because you won't have a knock sensor, but thats not a problem if you know how to adjust it right. I haven't done this yet, but I plan on doing it, and everyone "tells" me it will work.
Also, if you don't have them yet, you need to get an intake manifold and exhaust manifold from a scirocco16v. You need the intake manifold to face the driver side (unlike all other 16v's where the intake manifold faces the passenger side). As far as I know, thats all you need to do. But like I said, its only what a I've heard, so someone correct me if I am wrong. Good luck,

-Nick
 

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Re: CIS 16V ? (NTRabbit)

Quote, originally posted by NTRabbit »
I'm going to try the same thing in my car. I've got a 2.0L 16v that I'm about to drop in, and I want to keep my CIS for the time being (until turbo comes
) What everyone has told me is that it can be done. The only thing you need to do apparently is get an ignition distributor from a Sabb900. The distributors on those cars will fit the 16v head, but they have a vacuum advance canister which is need for the CIS system.
I've never tried that. I always used the knock sensor system. You can use the knock sensor controller from an 8V 10:1 engine (HT or RD code) or from a PL code 1.8L 16V. If you use the A1 fuel pump relay, you won't have the connection from the knock sensor to the fuel pump relay and there won't be a rev limiter. The knock sensor controller takes care of vacuum advance (there's a vaccuum hose fitting on the controller that connects to the manifold) and advance based on engine speed (like the centrifugal advance mechanism on an older distributor).
I'm guessing that the Saab 900 unit has both vaccuum advance and centrifugal advance as well. I'm not sure how the curves would be for the 16V engine, though. The PL engine knock sensor controller has it's advance curves optimized for the VW 16V engines and will work with the stock distributor on the 16V engines.
Quote, originally posted by NTRabbit »
You also need to be careful with your timing to make sure your aren't getting engine ping, because you won't have a knock sensor, but thats not a problem if you know how to adjust it right.

It's not a problem if you run premium fuel (always). If you expect to use mid grade or regular gas, the knock sensor is mandatory with the 16V engine. Still, you can use the PL engine knock sensor setup with the CIS-Lambda system from the older cars if you do a bit of wiring.
Quote, originally posted by NTRabbit »
I haven't done this yet, but I plan on doing it, and everyone "tells" me it will work.
Also, if you don't have them yet, you need to get an intake manifold and exhaust manifold from a scirocco16v. You need the intake manifold to face the driver side (unlike all other 16v's where the intake manifold faces the passenger side). As far as I know, thats all you need to do. But like I said, its only what a I've heard, so someone correct me if I am wrong. Good luck,

-Nick

You definitely need the intake and exhaust manifolds for a 16V $cirocco. The A2 manifolds are too tall and won't let the hood close on an A1 car. I'm not sure about the throttle body orientation on the A2 manifolds, but I know it's right for an A1 with the 16V $cirocco intake.
Also, are you planning to turbocharge a 9A engine (2.0L 16V)? or are you going to install a 16V head on your Audi 3A block? The 9A is a high compression engine and you'll have to do something to reduce compression if you want to run any significant boost without destroying the engine. Putting a 16V head on the 3A block will lower compression to around 8:1 and might be a better choice. I've been seriously considering putting a 16V head on an ABA block for a 2.0L turbo project.
 

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Re: CIS 16V ? (Racer_X)

turbo would be far future, and I would have to figure out a way to lower the compression. I was thinking a larger copper head gasket, or shorter performance pistons. thanks for the info about the knock sensors though.

-Nick
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: CIS 16V ? (Racer_X)



RacerX,
You dropped it on me!
I have all of the wiring from the PL,
including the ecu and knock box.
I was just hoping for a simple plug &
play swap. I don't want to really get into a
bunch of wiring.
So, Is the Saab distributor needed?
I will just opt for the Scirocco manifolds to
insure a correct fit.
Thanks for the knowledge.
 

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Re: CIS 16V ? (greenburrick16v)

Quote, originally posted by greenburrick16v »


RacerX,
You dropped it on me!
I have all of the wiring from the PL,
including the ecu and knock box.
I was just hoping for a simple plug &
play swap. I don't want to really get into a
bunch of wiring.
So, Is the Saab distributor needed?
I will just opt for the Scirocco manifolds to
insure a correct fit.
Thanks for the knowledge.

If you want to keep your existing CIS-Lambda setup, but run the knock sensor and associated knock sensor controller, you can do that. You only have to do some of the wiring for the knock sensor controller.
You don't hook anything from the knock sensor to the fuel pump relay (that's the rev limiter anyway), and you don't have to connect the wires from the CIS-E controller to the knock sensor box.
One of those wires is for the idle throttle position switch. You can wire the switch directly to the knock box. If you do, the idle will be smoother. It will run without the idle throttle switch, but the idle might hunt around a bit as the knock box adjusts the timing advance.
Basically, you only need to wire in the knock sensor itself, and the wiring from the hall sender and to the ignition module. You can use your existing ignition module and coil, too.
If you don't want to wire up the knock box, you'll need a dizzy with vaccuum advance and centrifugal advance. The dizzy for the 16V with the knock sensor system has neither because the knock sensor controller handles all the ignition advance functions.
If you search the archives here, you can probably find some threads about installing the knock sensor system on an older car, and those should have the wiring diagram for the minimum wiring required to make the system work.
 

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Re: CIS 16V ? (Racer_X)

ok, i think I'm getting the idea here. So if you want to keep CIS, you basically have two options:
1)run a sabb900 dist. which has vacuum and centrifugal advance. BUT, we aren't quite sure if the advance curves are correct for the 16v, right?
2)wire up a knock sensor and then you can use the regular 16v dist. Just wire it into the hall sender and ignition module. (and idle throttle position switch if you want).

I do have one question though. How does your knock sensor tell the engine to advance the timing as your increase rpms? I always thought that all the knock sensor did was retard your timing when it sensed ping. Sorry, I'm one of those people who has to know why and how everything works, haha.
Thanks,
-Nick



Modified by NTRabbit at 11:22 AM 7-27-2004
 

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Re: CIS 16V ? (NTRabbit)

Quote, originally posted by NTRabbit »
ok, i think I'm getting the idea here. So if you want to keep CIS, you basically have two options:
1)run a sabb900 dist. which has vacuum and centrifugal advance. BUT, we aren't quite sure if the advance curves are correct for the 16v, right?
Right. Also requires premium fuel (10:1 compression without knock sensor, 91 octane or higher required).
Quote, originally posted by NTRabbit »
2)wire up a knock sensor and then you can use the regular 16v dist. Just wire it into the hall sender and ignition module. (and idle throttle position switch if you want).

I do have one question though. How does your knock sensor tell the engine to advance the timing as your increase rpms? I always thought that all the knock sensor did was retard your timing when it sensed ping. Sorry, I'm one of those people who has to know why and how everything works, haha.
Thanks,
-Nick

The knock sensor box fits between the hall sender and the electronic ignition module (amplifier/switch). Basically, the output of the knock sensor looks the same as a hall sender to the ignition module.
There's a small computer in the knock sensor box that decides how to advance or retard the signal from the hall sender and when to fire the spark. It's all in the programming of the computer.
I'm not sure how sophisticated the VW knock sensor from the high compression 8V and 16V engines is. Some knock sensor systems can actually sense which cylinder is pinging due to differences in mixture or temperatures between cylinders and retard or advance the spark on individual cylinders that are more likely to ping.
 

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Re: CIS 16V ? (NTRabbit)

Quote, originally posted by NTRabbit »
do different knock sensors have different timing curves?

Different knock sensor controllers have different timing maps. Actually, it's possible for one controller to have more than one map for ignition timing.
For the VW's, the PL engine (1.8L 16V) has one ignition mapping. The HT and RD engines use the same controller part number, but the wiring harness selects a more conservative ignition timing map on the HT engine (1985 GTI's) and a more aggressive ignition timing map on the RD engine (1986-1988 8V GTI's and some Jetta models). The HT engine is rated at 100hp @ 5500 RPM's and 105 ft. lbs. at 3000 RPM's. The RD engine is rated at 102HP @ 5250 RPM's and 110 ft. lbs. at 3250 RPM's. The only difference between the two engines is that pin 11 of the knock sensor controller is tied to ground in the wiring harness of the HT engine, and in the RD engine, pin 11 is not connected. Also, the RD engine runs 16 degrees of advance at 3000 RPM's, and the HT engine runs only 14 degrees of advance and doesn't reach full advance until 4300 RPM's. If you cut the wire on pin 11 of the HT engine, it runs 16 degrees of advance at 3000 RPM's, just like the RD engine, and it produces slightly more torque and power, just like the RD engine. Both maps are stored in the controller and pin 11 selects which map the controller uses.
 

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Re: CIS 16V ? (greenburrick16v)

You can use the CIS...and if you run out of fuel you can swap to the Volvo 240 turbo unit which flows 300+ cc/min per injector. On a naturally aspirated car thats easily good for about 200 at the crank. I doubt your 16v will pass that mark in naturally aspirated form

With regards to the ignition. The 16v uses a 397E knock box whereas the 8v uses just plain jane 397 box. I've vacuum mapped the ignition timing of the boxes (since I was wanting to know which of the two would work best with my twin screw charger setup back in the day). This was with the 8v box using the 86 and up maps. The 16v has a more conservative curve than the 8v box. Generally about 2-3 degrees less advanced (16v combustion chamber has a faster burn rate = less timing advance needed to attain MBT)...
During dyno tuning I noticed that my 8v box has a "hole" in the low to midrange on my car where it could do with more timing. I'm running lower compression JE piston and it seems the combo likes a little more timing. I just added a little via the VSAM to compensate for the hole...
hope this helps,
Peter T.
PS: here is what the 8v box ignition map looks like...
 
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