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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
CIS-E G Lader now Silenced Twin Screw

Hello all,
I am almost done with a G-Lader upgrade to a stock C/R MK2 GTI.
I am surveying opinion and soliciting information from those experienced in ever doing this conversion (boosted CIS-E).
I have done research, read Probst's books, Bentley and countless posts.
I am just doing a general sanity check before turning the key for the first time.
To date, I have a used but good condition G60 installed into a stock 86 GTI.
The CIS-E is being refreshed with good clean injectors and verified flow and spray patterns.
I am anticipating running this on the stock CIS-E (K-Jetronic) system with FPR that has the potentiometer, Frequency Valve, and a good O2 sensor feed,
This will run with an OEM pully and low boost.
I have the Corrado Intake, T/B, I/C and plumbing in factory form and all factory pullies and tensioners installed on the MK2 block.
Bosal Header, and clearanced engine mounting provisions.
If there is anyone that has done this and knows what to look out for I would like inputs; particularily in the area of vacuum line hybridization
I don't plan DigiFant, M/S, or any other updating unless that is my only end option, in which case, this would have been a lot of work for the same sort of traditional update build.
Thanks:thumbup:



 

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I've only seen one running CIS-E turbo car on the vortex, and it was a Fox. The owner wired a hobbs switch to the full throttle switch wiring and cranked up the hidden DPR screw (not the mixture screw) to provide extra fuel under boost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
re:fox

I found and read up on his build posts.
The package was pretty impressive with the 8 line Mercedes FPR and Hobbs switch.
There was also an Aussie that did a Turbo rabbit and made a similar setup, but his was CIS Basic and employed a 240 FPR and WUR.
I think what you pointed out (the DPR) is the key to proper upper/lower chamber F/R magic.
I have hopes that with Lambda ECU control and the 02 sensor secondarily controlling the DPR it will yeild a valid modulation range, but in higher boost application the Hobbs and fuel enrichment might be needed.

Another thing I am curious about is the theory behind the CIS sensor plate. Can it measure volume and mass? In Digifant, the AFM cannot and needs a crude CO and pressure sensor, but in theory with CIS sensor plate lift I am assuming KE=1/2 MV^2 and it will measure density (mass) of the incoming air as well as volume (charger after air box draw through).
That being said, this is why I want to prove my build guess by trying CIS-E stock under low boost.
Thank you CodeMan for not hating and providing me honest insight, I get wary of asking people to chime in with feedback as there are a lot of talkers and few true tinkerers.
Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I've always had the impression that in order to properly boost cis, it required a warm up regulator that was capable providing more fuel under boost. For instance, a WUR from a turbo Volvo or an Audi.

Link for ref

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1384099
I believe you are correct and this is well documented, but with the advent of Lambda, the previous active component of Boost closing (lowering) return pressure via the WUR was transitioned by the DPR controller upper/lower chamber pressure deltas allowing more fuel flow to the injectors by increasing sensor plate lift and slit clearance, granted this was on N/A cars, but in theory vaccuum to atmosphere is boost with the 0 scale shifted.
 

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My friend built a Callaway kit onto his CIS Caddy. Really interesting setup, I've messed with it myself. it's a lot of work, you should definitely read up on EVERYTHING yo can find about hos CIS works and how to boost it. A CIS-E G60 would be very very cool!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
My friend built a Callaway kit onto his CIS Caddy. Really interesting setup, I've messed with it myself. it's a lot of work, you should definitely read up on EVERYTHING yo can find about hos CIS works and how to boost it. A CIS-E G60 would be very very cool!
Yes, I saw the callaway turbonium bunny, ~450WHP.
They did Basic withthe WUR setup.
As an aside I have a WUR from my 84GTI mounted to my 86 GTI block as a tinkering fallback if I see red on my A/F Gauge meter. to hybrid in a WUR with CIS-E might pose a challenge, but then I could try an FMU or custom fab a manifold for the Digifant Fuel Pressure rail regulator, but its base PSI might not handle the PSI of the CIS-E setup.
I have to think that the DPR was designed with some degree of foresight by VW-Bosch and iterative design intent, I know from bolting this thing together, the mechanicals were.

Thanks for the positive reply

 

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604-777-1039

Oh no, my friend just has a full OEM Callaway setup, nothing monserous. He got the original installation manual with it too, turbo CIS is suprisingly easy. he did find that it leaned out under boost though, he had to add a Callaway microfeueller (not required with the basic setup according the the manual). He runs CIS basic though, not sure how it'd operate under CIS-E.

A hybrid WUR with CIS-E... hmm. Callaway made a Turbo setup for CIS-E Mk2 GTIs also, if you could find some info on those it might help.

(I'm sure there are other resources for CIS-E FIs, but I really like the idea of going back in the day, when VW were still building and designing these systems, that Calalway had some insight into that that we might not have now)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
That is why I have such a preferrence for the mechanical fuel injection systems.
If I can get this GTI CIS-E G60 right, I have ammassed the parts for a G60 16V MK1 GTI, Then maybe an Eaton M60 CIS QSW.
Would love to do something with my 2.1 WBX in the boost realm too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Pic's of effort

Just in case anyone was interested, this is my first posting of pics of the project.
The progress has been pretty slow as many discoveries are being made with each new issue resolved.
The engine is MK2 and the corrado S/C mount bolts right up.
I had to get pullys from the Corrado, shim the W/P pully and press and remount the Corrado P/S pully offset. Variants from MK3's work would work as well.
This is a non p/s GTI that will have the p/s pump looped to allow the W/P to be driven.
I fabbed an I/C mount to put it where it would be on the corrado, I had to notch the front crossmember to clearance the A/C pully, trial and error, then a Cabby R/H mount installed upside down in the front carriage and I gained the clearance I needed. I know now that there were other ways to do the same thing, but it was fun to figure it out. See links, and let me know what you think :thumbup::thumbdown:

https://picasaweb.google.com/117793989155600108233/GolfGTIG60
Project?authkey=Gv1sRgCL3thNjMwJbhrgE#






 

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You might be better off starting with G60 block and a CIS head on it (compression, oil squirters etc). Also, you should be able to run the water pump off the serp belt with a VR6 water pump pulley on it I think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
In hindsight

I would have just bought a long block and done the engine swap Digi and all and then tied in the electrical.
I thought originally the electrics would pose more of a problem so I went with mechnical bolt ons of the G-Lader mount over the stock W/P, swapped the pullies for an Alt, A/C, and P/S corrado serpentine setup and it pretty much bolted on the rest.
I know I am potentially asking for long term issues using the 10:1 C/R and non oil squirter setup, but a lot of what I read indicated the Corrado bottem end was similar with the differences in C/R mainly being from dished pistons.
I am too far down the path to consider PG shortblocking or stacking the headgasket so I will cross my fingers, run cold plugs, lower thermostat, high octane, watch the A/F ratio, and keep it OEM on the boost side with stock pully and OEM T/B.
The design in theory should work, proving it will be another story, but I think its possible.
Thanks :)
 

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The biggest obstacle in running cis of any form is the lack of ability to control the spark. They have ignition maps however they are set in stone except for turning the distributor, which only moves the whole curve a few degrees.

If you want it to run well for a long time you will need 2 things for certain, Boost related timing retard and a really efficient intercooler. I would probably also include water/meth injection. The intake temps you will see will be insane and without control of the timing and fuel precisely to lower the temps, you are just asking for a melt down. The glader charger is very inefficient and runs a lot of heat, if you can keep control of the temps you will be fine. I would def suggest a EGT probe to keep and eye on things and to keep things from melting :beer:
 

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The biggest obstacle in running cis of any form is the lack of ability to control the spark. They have ignition maps however they are set in stone except for turning the distributor, which only moves the whole curve a few degrees.

If you want it to run well for a long time you will need 2 things for certain, Boost related timing retard and a really efficient intercooler. I would probably also include water/meth injection. The intake temps you will see will be insane and without control of the timing and fuel precisely to lower the temps, you are just asking for a melt down. The glader charger is very inefficient and runs a lot of heat, if you can keep control of the temps you will be fine. I would def suggest a EGT probe to keep and eye on things and to keep things from melting :beer:
The knock sensor system on some CIS-E cars adjusts for advanced timing at WOT etc, and under load. A brain from a Turbo Audi should help with boost too.
 

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it can help but it will not retard nearly fast enough to avoid knock or detonation. It is a assist for a well tuned ignition, not a substitute.

also besides detonation we are also talking about heat. Having a setup that will only retard if there is knock detected will have no effect on the combustion temps. This is going to be his main issue with the type of boost being used
 
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