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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all !

I´m looking into how to make my Corrado handle as good as possible. It does have license plates so restrictions are real.
I will explain what I have done, what I want out of the car and what I think could help - and I really need opinions, real life experiance tips and a point in the direction of what to do and not to do.
This thread is all about handling and not HP, but for the reference I do have a G60 who is turbo converted.
As I mentioned this is a Corrado with license plates. I use the car only in the summer and mostly for fun drives.
Have not been to the track, yet, but next year I hope this will happen (Have a few engine upgrades needed to be done first) Realistic It will be 2 track visits per summer (Or more, if I get bit by the bug) The quality of Norwegian roads are very different from one road to another and with todays setup I already have roads I do avoid - so I am prepared to limit the car drivability for bad roads even more if some upgrades means better handling but even more **** to bumps and potholes.

Todays upgrades, handling vise;

KW V3 coilovers (Poly bushings in the rear, stock in front)
Eurosport stress-bar between control arms
Poly bushings in control arms
Vibra-tech street engine mounts
25mm front sway bar
25mm rear sway bar with end links
4pot brembo´s with 305 discs in front
16" with 205/45 Federal 595 RS-Pro tyres (Not something I use on street, they are ment for inspection and track use only)

Today I feel the car is pretty much on point in corners at moderate speed, but kinda "unstable"/"sloppy" in high speed.
I also really want more/quicker steering response.
The rear sway bar with end links (Have tried without end links, directed mounted to the rear beam/suspension - that was TOO MUCH) did a l o t !
I also feel that the suspension is too soft for high speed, but stiff enough for moderate speed (Front). I am in the process of hardening the suspensions these days for the fronts, have not started to adjust the bump yet - and I am kinda clue-less here - any pointers ? The ride is hard in low speeds over speedbumps but surprisingly soft when cornering in high speed, off of freeway, as and example.

I read that upper bars (between suspensions towers) does not do much - but will they at least be a little gain/worth it ?
I had one for the front, but sold it as I never liked the thing that you actully need to drill holes in the chassis..
The rear one is a no brainer (Eurosport) - but I really feel my main problem is in the front of the car.

What I really miss is steering response/action in high speed. I feel i need to turn the steering wheel a lot/I do not get enough response when turning in high speed. Apply the feeling of softness and it is like "the car are about to sink through the asphalt.." It is also like I have an "overhung ass" in the opposite way of the corner - in a left corner the weight feels to be pushed up high through the right rear corner of the car. Again, only in high speed.

I could adjust to more negative camber and maybe even a little toe out - but then I would need to get stock aligment every two years for inspection.. I mean - I can go there - but is this the way to go ?
I see Fabless state that the Hemi control arms provide better steering response - can any one confirm ?
A half roll cage for the rear I could install (If I find with Tüv papers) But will it help ?
Will delete of the PS system gain steering response ?/Is it worth it ?
Are any of the modifications already done, wrong ?
Should I go poly for the front suspension ?
Educate me - please !

Pics for clicks;

Todays control arm angle. Would it help to rise the front ?



Street wheels used and current hight;



 

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Handling feel is pretty subjective; but I think you are experiencing a few things. Just because it doesn’t feel stiff as a board, doesn’t mean it’s not handing better, but it may not feel as good/snappy.

KWs springs tend to sit on the softer side (for track/race) (400lb & 285), this makes them a great street coilover as the softer rate with adjustable (on v3) dampening and rebound allows for a pretty comfortable ride. In addition, you want a softer spring to have more compliance and articulation under impact, the downside to this, is it may feel soft at speed.

Additionally, I would look at the remaining suspension bushings. Are you running factory control arm (*edit * edit please ignore as I re-read your parts list), sway bar, rear beam bushings?, are they aged?

I guess my big question, is are you thinking body roll = bad handling and you want that roll to go away?, or do you just want it as snappy and responsive as possible?

If you want the snap response, I would look into a stiffer spring (KW does sell them separately as an upgrade option) additionally I would remove all rubber bushings and move to a stiffer poly, and lastly have a performance oriented alignment done as a proper non comfort focused alignment helps a ton as well.

PS…

I don’t claim to be an expert, just someone with a passion for a well handing/feeling car as well.

(Bunch of bits headed for my mk1)
 

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I addition to the suggestions from 01, you could get Koni Yellow struts (or strut inserts) and shocks and crank them full stiff for the track and go back to the middle for the street.

I loved the Koni Yellows on my Corrado. It was street driven and I set the Konis right in the middle on stock springs.

It cornered like my '78 Scirocco on Bilstein Sport dampers (bone rattling), wider tires and lowering springs (like a go cart) and was as comfortable as a Caddilac.
 

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My opinion but we know what those are like:

-Raise your car up so your control arms are closer to level.
-A friend of mine who has had really good handling cars and often did very well at vw races suggest a slight bit of reverse rake.
-increase the spring rates
-play with the rear track width. Narrower rear will increase oversteer and wider rear will increase understeer.
-corner balance and adjusts the coilovers

If you want to go all out do the plus suspension and fenders.


Get your rear beam in alignment if it has failed prior alignments. People say it doesn’t matter much but mine made a HUGE difference. I actually bought a new rear beam and installed spherical bearings.

Here is my 1990’s suspension setup, it feels great, better than any corrado I’ve had.

-Peloquin Limited Slip Differential
-plus suspension in the front
-KW V2
-514lb (90-170) front springs 400 (70-200) rears
-control arm bushings Phenix uhmw front and R32 rears
-Autotech front strut bar
-neuspeed 4pt rear bar
-stock mk3 front strut bushings and bearings
-Kyb rear shocks bushings
-stock front sway bar
-after marker mk2 carb rear beam with no stock sway bar. (Same width as g60 beam but 20mm Narrower than VR6 beam) I run the narrower beam so can play with spacers/wheel widths.
-spherical beam bushings
-rear beam 3/16” rear beam Plates to center the wheels in the wheel wells.
-neuspeed rear sway bar set to firmest setting
-corner balanced
-215/40/17 falken azenis 615k+
-BBS Black Chrome LM 17x8 et 35 or gold LMs 17x7.5 et 29
-5mm spacers in the front with rears being 15mm for street stance narrower for more oversteer.
-a little bit of reverse rake on the height. My control arms are pointed up just a little.
-Street setting for the V2s is now 8 for the street but 16 in an aggressive twisties setting. These really change the feel.

Note I centered the engine to improve handling of the 3.6 which I had initially tilted forward for hood clearance. this killed handling. Also revhang killed handling.

Also a well balanaced brake setup will work in conjunction with the right suspension setup. I’m running 12.3 with Porsche boxsters up front with R32 10.1 vented in the rear with ebc yellows all the way around with a 25mm MC.

This setup (less rear springs) was phenomenal at the tail of the dragon a few months and is now at the point of minor tweaks for improvements. Playing with the rear springs and spacers.







 

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Here is a thread I found myself reading a few days ago it’s pretty good to get a classic thought process:

 

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G60ign is pretty much spot on for setup.

For a lighter G60/4cyl Turbo raise the front up until the control arms are parallel to the ground. Camber for the track should be about -2.1° to -2.8° with toe set at 0° to +.5°. The hard steering is because the control arms are reaching maxed out position which also will limit tire rod movement. The solution is to flip the tie rod but using trunnion pin setup with a heim end.

Poly control arm bushings suck, they rip apart and dont offer good movement of the suspension. While a full spherical setup is great, they are noisy and require regular maintenance which is better for a full track only car.

Using UHMW in the front position of the control arm bushings allow easy rotation similar to a spherical without issue of maintenance.

Tires are also a huge factor, generally for track days anything less than an R-Comp you wont really get good front grip on acceleration out of the corner. Normal way to drive the Corrado very fast is to trail brake in putting weight onto the front suspension, add steering while lifting off the brakes gently to set the car up. Then add throttle while watching for understeer, understeer can be modulated with backing off throttle which will put weight back onto the front while allowing the rear to rotate (slide) a little.

Everyone likes to throw sway bars at these cars, which is masking the issues you need to dial into your shocks/springs first. You should set your bump to middle setting, then perhaps back it down to allow a softer compression. I would move to a stock front sway bar and leave the rear on the softest setting. Too stiff of a front bar prevents the suspension from moving how it needs to.

Depending on your brake bias, you might need to mess with compounds to match front/rear as you have much more brakes on the front vs rear. You could also put an adjustable bias valve in. A Limited slip will also help you a lot with ability to lift throttle rotate the car while offering more grip in the corner and a faster exit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Handling feel is pretty subjective; but I think you are experiencing a few things. Just because it doesn’t feel stiff as a board, doesn’t mean it’s not handing better, but it may not feel as good/snappy.

KWs springs tend to sit on the softer side (for track/race) (400lb & 285), this makes them a great street coilover as the softer rate with adjustable (on v3) dampening and rebound allows for a pretty comfortable ride. In addition, you want a softer spring to have more compliance and articulation under impact, the downside to this, is it may feel soft at speed.

Additionally, I would look at the remaining suspension bushings. Are you running factory control arm (*edit * edit please ignore as I re-read your parts list), sway bar, rear beam bushings?, are they aged?

I guess my big question, is are you thinking body roll = bad handling and you want that roll to go away?, or do you just want it as snappy and responsive as possible?

If you want the snap response, I would look into a stiffer spring (KW does sell them separately as an upgrade option) additionally I would remove all rubber bushings and move to a stiffer poly, and lastly have a performance oriented alignment done as a proper non comfort focused alignment helps a ton as well.

PS…

I don’t claim to be an expert, just someone with a passion for a well handing/feeling car as well.

(Bunch of bits headed for my mk1)
Thank you for the reply !
The description of the KW´s are spot on. When I researched before purchase this was the most important factor for choosing them. I´m very satisfied with them, but my whole set-up is missing a few things to get it where I want.

I do not think body roll means bad handling. On my previous coilovers there was n o body roll and the ride was horrible. I want it more snappy and responsive. And I do think the KW´s are a little to soft for high speed, but I will for sure try out more stiffer settings. I´m having a hard time explaining myself in a "foreign" language. I might sound very dissatisfied with my setup - i´m not, it´s just not as expected.

Regarding the rear beam bushings I have never replaced them and i will guess they are stock and ready for replacement. I have been advised against going poly there cause of horrible ride, but further down spherical bearings are mentioned. Will look into this - this is new to me.
Swaybar bushings was replaced for new (stock) when installed.

I was hoping not to do any changes to the coilovers, but springs are mention by several so I guess this is very important.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
My opinion but we know what those are like:

-Raise your car up so your control arms are closer to level.
-A friend of mine who has had really good handling cars and often did very well at vw races suggest a slight bit of reverse rake.
-increase the spring rates
-play with the rear track width. Narrower rear will increase oversteer and wider rear will increase understeer.
-corner balance and adjusts the coilovers

If you want to go all out do the plus suspension and fenders.


Get your rear beam in alignment if it has failed prior alignments. People say it doesn’t matter much but mine made a HUGE difference. I actually bought a new rear beam and installed spherical bearings.

Here is my 1990’s suspension setup, it feels great, better than any corrado I’ve had.

-Peloquin Limited Slip Differential
-plus suspension in the front
-KW V2
-514lb (90-170) front springs 400 (70-200) rears
-control arm bushings Phenix uhmw front and R32 rears
-Autotech front strut bar
-neuspeed 4pt rear bar
-stock mk3 front strut bushings and bearings
-Kyb rear shocks bushings
-stock front sway bar
-after marker mk2 carb rear beam with no stock sway bar. (Same width as g60 beam but 20mm Narrower than VR6 beam) I run the narrower beam so can play with spacers/wheel widths.
-spherical beam bushings
-rear beam 3/16” rear beam Plates to center the wheels in the wheel wells.
-neuspeed rear sway bar set to firmest setting
-corner balanced
-215/40/17 falken azenis 615k+
-BBS Black Chrome LM 17x8 et 35 or gold LMs 17x7.5 et 29
-5mm spacers in the front with rears being 15mm for street stance narrower for more oversteer.
-a little bit of reverse rake on the height. My control arms are pointed up just a little.
-Street setting for the V2s is now 8 for the street but 16 in an aggressive twisties setting. These really change the feel.

Note I centered the engine to improve handling of the 3.6 which I had initially tilted forward for hood clearance. this killed handling. Also revhang killed handling.

Also a well balanaced brake setup will work in conjunction with the right suspension setup. I’m running 12.3 with Porsche boxsters up front with R32 10.1 vented in the rear with ebc yellows all the way around with a 25mm MC.

This setup (less rear springs) was phenomenal at the tail of the dragon a few months and is now at the point of minor tweaks for improvements. Playing with the rear springs and spacers.
Thank you for the reply !
I read Per Schroeder (VW sport tuning book) points out this as an important thing. Was hoping to not give up looks for this improvement quest, but I will get into this tomorrow among with hardening the suspension.

Can you please explain this in other words ? I do not have any idea of what you mean.

The car was aligned last year prior to inspection for license plates. Passenger side rear wheel points out more then driver side (physical), but according to the scanner/adjustment it is correct;


You have some very interesting modification done. I really need to read up on the spherical beam bushings, rear beam 3/16” rear beam Plates and consider corner balancing.
I can say right not that I will not go so hard into this changing the rear beam, but will look into mentioned things!
Have always wanted an LSD. The torque steer is horrible.. I do have an 02S 6-speed sitting meaning to go into the 02A box, but I do not trust myself doing this and I have not found anyone taking these kind of jobs around...

One thing I quite do not understand. You have KW v2, but also have plus suspension ? What´s the plus suspension ?
What kind of control arms are you using ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
G60ign is pretty much spot on for setup.

For a lighter G60/4cyl Turbo raise the front up until the control arms are parallel to the ground. Camber for the track should be about -2.1° to -2.8° with toe set at 0° to +.5°. The hard steering is because the control arms are reaching maxed out position which also will limit tire rod movement. The solution is to flip the tie rod but using trunnion pin setup with a heim end.

Poly control arm bushings suck, they rip apart and dont offer good movement of the suspension. While a full spherical setup is great, they are noisy and require regular maintenance which is better for a full track only car.

Using UHMW in the front position of the control arm bushings allow easy rotation similar to a spherical without issue of maintenance.

Tires are also a huge factor, generally for track days anything less than an R-Comp you wont really get good front grip on acceleration out of the corner. Normal way to drive the Corrado very fast is to trail brake in putting weight onto the front suspension, add steering while lifting off the brakes gently to set the car up. Then add throttle while watching for understeer, understeer can be modulated with backing off throttle which will put weight back onto the front while allowing the rear to rotate (slide) a little.

Everyone likes to throw sway bars at these cars, which is masking the issues you need to dial into your shocks/springs first. You should set your bump to middle setting, then perhaps back it down to allow a softer compression. I would move to a stock front sway bar and leave the rear on the softest setting. Too stiff of a front bar prevents the suspension from moving how it needs to.

Depending on your brake bias, you might need to mess with compounds to match front/rear as you have much more brakes on the front vs rear. You could also put an adjustable bias valve in. A Limited slip will also help you a lot with ability to lift throttle rotate the car while offering more grip in the corner and a faster exit.
Thank you for the reply !
Even today the Corrado is no way a quiet ride and I could not care less. Stereo not operational, I almost never have passages - this car is for ME. I have a daily for long rides and silent rides. Maintenance wise - how often and what needs to be done ?
Would you go UHMW bushings on stock control arms or the Fabless heim control arms ?

I´m not quite there yet. I would assume my Federal on track wheels is up for the job and I am pretty pleased with the Falken on street wheels. They have yet not screamed on me even tho I´ve tried. Wait.. Is that a bad thing ? Have experienced slip on inner wheel once or twice in little meaning.

The bump are on middle setting. I felt the sway bars really made a difference in how the car behaves - in a good way, but i never have given the thought of how they will act with the suspension. This topic is way off my knowledge at the moment.
None of my sway bars have any adjustments, other than the rear could be mounted with end links or directly to the rear beam/suspension. Last mentioned was too much, I use end links today.
I have been reading that the sway bar in front should not be too tight to the control arm. It is suggested that the washer should be able to be turned with force of fingers (not freely) Could you confirm ? Mine is solid..

Yes, my brake setup is a miss match. I have always been mening to upgrade the rears as well but have never gotten there. I was thinking about the MK4 calipers or the Polo 256mm setup.
LSD is on the wishlist!
 

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For the spherical bearings go to the source/manufacture. Products – IMS I was able to talk with him one Saturday afternoon and he had them shipped Monday and it was a great buying experience.

For the alignment that sheet is very different than what I’m used to looking at. I’ve just emailed NGP Racing for copies of my old ones to help you. Mine was at the limits of allowable tolerances based on the Bentley manual for a VR6 Corrado.

The one thing I could tell from your sheet was the track length is different from one side to the other. That will cause the steering wheel to be slightly off center when going straight from what I’ve read. You could maybe loosen one side of the k-frame to adjust the slop in the mounting bolts to even it out but that wouldn’t cause bad handling.

The plus suspension is the 5 lug front suspension which is a large swap to do completely but it handles a lot better. It also helps the angle of the control arms. The axles, control arms, steering rack, steering column hime joint, spindles, front brakes and sway bar are all different. The rear brake rotors are different too.

The rear 3/16” plates are more about being low. When you lower the car the rear wheels move forward in the wheelwell. Eventually the whees will rub the front upper portion see orange in the picture. If you mildly lowered like my car the plates will center the wheels in the wheelwell.



*note these wheels/tires are only on my car to avoid flat spots on my Falken Azenis tires as my car is need of repairs I don’t have time for.
 

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Thank you for the reply !
Even today the Corrado is no way a quiet ride and I could not care less. Stereo not operational, I almost never have passages - this car is for ME. I have a daily for long rides and silent rides. Maintenance wise - how often and what needs to be done ?
Would you go UHMW bushings on stock control arms or the Fabless heim control arms ?

I´m not quite there yet. I would assume my Federal on track wheels is up for the job and I am pretty pleased with the Falken on street wheels. They have yet not screamed on me even tho I´ve tried. Wait.. Is that a bad thing ? Have experienced slip on inner wheel once or twice in little meaning.

The bump are on middle setting. I felt the sway bars really made a difference in how the car behaves - in a good way, but i never have given the thought of how they will act with the suspension. This topic is way off my knowledge at the moment.
None of my sway bars have any adjustments, other than the rear could be mounted with end links or directly to the rear beam/suspension. Last mentioned was too much, I use end links today.
I have been reading that the sway bar in front should not be too tight to the control arm. It is suggested that the washer should be able to be turned with force of fingers (not freely) Could you confirm ? Mine is solid..

Yes, my brake setup is a miss match. I have always been mening to upgrade the rears as well but have never gotten there. I was thinking about the MK4 calipers or the Polo 256mm setup.
LSD is on the wishlist!

Tubular arms are not needed even for hard core track cars, I do not run them on any of mine due to the reason of there is no prize money in track days. If you hit a hard curb or bend something waiting on a custom part can take months in some cases when an OEM unit will suffice and is cheaper/more available.

Re-packing wheel bearings is critical for life of them on the track with high loads, using a high temp race grease. Reason I dont like rear bars is that it prevents the beam from pivioting, this will cause one side to lift off the ground which then forces one tire to do all the work on the back. If your tires are in the air then you are leaving a lot of speed on the table, but it looks cool in photos.
 

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I took Noah’s advice on a lot of the setup details after having a super rough outting with my 3.6 corrado in 2018 on the tail of the dragon. Handling was twitchy from understeer to oversteer almost within the same breathe. I cooked my 11.3 brakes to the point where the brakes were smoking and the rotors were blue. That started a 3 year process to get my car handling right.

2018: setup was g60 suspension with custom front 5x100 hubs with 4x100 axle splines, poly&r32 control arm bushings, Autotech front strut bar, 3.6 engine tilted forward for hood clearance, neuspeed 4pt rear strut bar, Autotech front sway bar, neuspeed rear sway bar set to mild, H&R stainless coilovers from Europe with stock springs, 11.3 DE brakes and stock g60 rear brakes. Can’t remember pads. BBS LM 17x7 with cheap 205/40/17 tires. Result was VERY poor handling at the tail of the dragon. Massive brake fade with fresh fluid. VERY Dangerous.

2019: added KW V2, plus suspension, UHMW/R32 control arm bushings, 12.3 & 10.1 brakes, ebc yellow front pads and stoptech performance street rear pads, widen LMs from 7” to 8” and installed 215/40/17 azenis 615k+ tires, corner balanced. KW V2 were set very low at 2 or something crazy. STILL less than great handling at the tail of the dragon but not nearly as dangerous.

2020: added 514lb front springs GOOD improvement but still twitchy, no dragon V2 still set low.

2021: Centered engine, new rear beam with spherical bearings, new 3/16” rear beam plates (I had homemade ones before that might not have been flat) spherical rear beam bearings, improved the rev hang issue, V2 set to 8 on the street and 16 at the dragon, added ebc yellow rear pads and corner balanced again. Handles flipping amazing. Rears rub more than they should due to heavier fronts. Amazing dragon run.

2022: will be heavier rear springs (already have them) and thinner rear spacers

I think the majority of the poor handling was related to a tweaked rear beam, the revhang and having my engine tilted forward of the stock VR6 position.

I repacked my front wheel bearings with redline grease in 2019: CV-2 Grease

i
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks for the honesty and tips Noah!
I must say I really liked the effect with the rear sway bar installed with end links. I felt the car became more as a complete unit, without I felt the ass was just taggling along.

Gotcha for the plus suspension G60ING! That will not be an option for the nearest future, but never say never.
The sheet I showed is the result of alignment needed to be done to get license plate. They adjust it to whats needed within spec to get the car checked OK. And you are correct, my steering wheel is slightly off, but nothing that has bothered me. (Very slightly)
You been through a whole lot of upgrades/adjustments, thanks for listing everything up!

I would like to thank all of you taking the time for such complete answers ! Love it.
I must admit I need to do some more reading on multiple topics.
I think for starters, if it makes cense to you (?) I will rise the car and try different settings on the KW´s and change the poly bushings on control arms when doing engine upgrade. I do have a poly bushing for the steering rack who I forgot to put on, will do this when engine upgrade happens. Apparently I also need to really think about upgrading the springs.

Also, honestly think i need to get out on the track to experience how the car r e a l y behaves. I might have been too judgmental on some things based on street driving.
 

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Thanks for the honesty and tips Noah!
I must say I really liked the effect with the rear sway bar installed with end links. I felt the car became more as a complete unit, without I felt the ass was just taggling along.

Gotcha for the plus suspension G60ING! That will not be an option for the nearest future, but never say never.
The sheet I showed is the result of alignment needed to be done to get license plate. They adjust it to whats needed within spec to get the car checked OK. And you are correct, my steering wheel is slightly off, but nothing that has bothered me. (Very slightly)
You been through a whole lot of upgrades/adjustments, thanks for listing everything up!

I would like to thank all of you taking the time for such complete answers ! Love it.
I must admit I need to do some more reading on multiple topics.
I think for starters, if it makes cense to you (?) I will rise the car and try different settings on the KW´s and change the poly bushings on control arms when doing engine upgrade. I do have a poly bushing for the steering rack who I forgot to put on, will do this when engine upgrade happens. Apparently I also need to really think about upgrading the springs.

Also, honestly think i need to get out on the track to experience how the car r e a l y behaves. I might have been too judgmental on some things based on street driving.
Happy to help! Dialing a car in for a driver does have a level of subjectiveness to it as depending on driving experience and style there are different ways to set the car up. Was setting up a friends 996 Turbo this weekend he was blown away on how much better it feels and handles than his 997.2 GT3! Again subjective that most 911 guys say the 997.2 GT3 is the pinnacle of suspension, but depending on what the desired feel and response is of the suspension you can entirely change the car. Best advice is keep an open mind and try out different setups and record what you changed and how it worked. At least with that you can benchmark vs comparing to the prior setup.
 
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