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Please help - for the MKVIII R - MT or DSG FTW?

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Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
So for me a couple of lessons learned
  • I had an S4 (B7, B8) both auto - the B7 (V8) was so nice - but needed to be an MT !
  • I had an 335 auto - no complaints - one of the best, most enjoyable cars I've driven - no complaints with the Auto;
  • I had a my 2017 R (MT) and bought a trackhawk (YES - the 707HP hellcat jeep) - an auto and a total beast 0-60 3.5 seconds - it was fun too, not an issue as an auto
  • On thing for sure - I have no interest in an electric car - just saying.

Is this the same debate for a porsche PDK vs manual and M3 Dual-clutch Vs Manual?

FUNNY both say - auto is faster, MT is more engaging

Besides, Porsche engineers say a PDK works better than a manual with the company's latest turbocharged flat-fours and flat-sixes. The bottom line for me is that Porsche has developed its PDK to the point it's so good, a manual transmission is unnecessary. Driving a Porsche day in and day out, I'd go PDK

M3??
 

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So for me a couple of lessons learned
  • I had an S4 (B7, B8) both auto - the B7 (V8) was so nice - but needed to be an MT !
  • I had an 335 auto - no complaints - one of the best, most enjoyable cars I've driven - no complaints with the Auto;
  • I had a my 2017 R (MT) and bought a trackhawk (YES - the 707HP hellcat jeep) - an auto and a total beast 0-60 3.5 seconds - it was fun too, not an issue as an auto
  • I have no insterest in an electric car - just saying.

Is this the same debate for a porsche PDK vs manual?

Besides, Porsche engineers say a PDK works better than a manual with the company's latest turbocharged flat-fours and flat-sixes. The bottom line for me is that Porsche has developed its PDK to the point it's so good, a manual transmission is unnecessary. Driving a Porsche day in and day out, I'd go PDK

M3??
Kind of getting to the crux of the matter, which is that the question has been asked and answered already.

A couple of weeks ago I accidentally launched my car.

On my commute, there's a stop sign on a steep hill crossing a busy road atop the hill which has no stop at that juncture. Moreover, crossing traffic from the right is coming around a blind corner 150ft away at "35"mph. If I get out of work at the wrong time, crossing that busy road is nigh impossible. I got in the habit of giving the throttle a quick blip up to 1500rpm or so and letting it fall back to idle before letting off the clutch at that stop sign. I don't know why, I just find it gets over the hill quicker that way, without actually having to dump the clutch at high rpm and wear out the clutch. Well, this day I had three or four openings to take off, which were promptly killed by sudden crossing traffic from the right, leaving me sitting at the stop sign revving the car like an ass. Finally my slot was there and I let it go. I don't think I was that far off idle, but the car was ready to go, and it went, screeching tires and all. I was grinning.

A manual transmission forces you to participate in the experience all the time, to have these little foibles even when you're not looking for them. No automatic of any incarnation will do that for you, in that metric they don't "work" at all. They are better in every technological way, shifting imperceptibly fast, building boost at launch, and holding boost in between gears, but what a manual transmission offers hasn't changed or been replicated ever.
 
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Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
The distilled debate is excalty that simple. One is analog the other is not - the MT forces engagement. I guess, if I'm being honest with myself, this is more about "talking me into a DSG" and justifying the choice. As a general rule, if you have to rationalize it, probably not what you really want to do.
 
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As the owner of both an E36 325is manual (my racecar), and an F82 M4 DCT, I know from very personal experience almost every weekend which one is more engaging, and which one is faster. The M4 w/DCT is faster, more comfortable and all around better to drive on a daily basis. Which car puts a bigger smile on the my face, and is in fact, much slower around a racetrack (Mosport near Toronto, in case anyone wonders)? The E36 325is (with all of 170 HP). Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my M4, but unless I'm putting the boots to it, it's just a nice daily driver. The E36, however, is raw, loud (completely stripped and dipped), stiff, uncomfortable, wildly underpowered, and completely thrilling to drive.

If the Golf R only came in DSG, I wouldn't be looking at a Golf R either. If stoplight performance really mattered to me that much, I would either keep my M4 DCT, or as pointed out, pick up a Tesla Model S, which would blow any ICE vehicle off the road at a stoplight.


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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
This is how I felt about the RS3 with no manual.


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This will be the 5th new Volkswagen I’ve purchased with manual transmission: 2010 VW Golf TDI Blue Graphite Pearl Effect two door 6 spd manual, 2013 VW Passat TDI Reflex Silver Metallic 6 spd manual, 2017 VW GTI Midnight Blue Metallic Sport 4 door 6 spd manual, 2019 VW GTI SE Great Falls Green (Pfauengruen/Peacock Green) Metallic 4 door 6 spd manual and soon to be 2022 VW Golf R Lapiz Blue 6 spd manual.

if you factor in my first car a ten year old 1993 VW Corrado SLC Classic Green Pearl Effect 5 spd manual, it will be my sixth VW with manual transmission. I’ve been voting with my dollar for manual transmission for a long time.
 

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This will be the 5th new Volkswagen I’ve purchased with manual transmission: 2010 VW Golf TDI Blue Graphite Pearl Effect two door 6 spd manual, 2013 VW Passat TDI Reflex Silver Metallic 6 spd manual, 2017 VW GTI Midnight Blue Metallic Sport 4 door 6 spd manual, 2019 VW GTI SE Great Falls Green (Pfauengruen/Peacock Green) Metallic 4 door 6 spd manual and soon to be 2022 VW Golf R Lapiz Blue 6 spd manual.
Wow!!! Mine is a 4-door, but I'm still driving the first one on your list, a 2010 Golf TDI, Blue Graphite Metallic, with a 6-speed manual. You went through quite a few cars! In the next year or two I'm probably finally going to get a new car, an Atlantic Blue GTI 6-speed manual or a Lapiz Blue Golf R 6-speed manual. I just need to see them in person to make a decision.

For me it's just more fun to drive with the manual transmission.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
I have and lamenting my R all the time. The bottom line is (for any car I’ve ever driven or owned) the R is #1 on the list. The only other wudnerlust vehicle was the mk3 vr6 manual in the showroom when I bought my first GTI !

That said R for the win !


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I was forced away from MT by a steadily-worsening problem with my left knee (so that would be the clutch leg). I'd driven stick literally my entire life, and for a good stretch of years I was one of "those guys" who would look down on AT drivers as a lesser breed.

After 4+ years driving a DSG, I will say this: I miss stickshift much, much less than I thought I would. DSG really suits the character of the Golf R. Heck, I've even learned to like paddle shifters.

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ICEs are slow, embrace it and get the 6MT, or just save yourself some money in ownership costs and get an EV if you really care about speed foremost.
Well this is a debate with my wife too of what our next car will be.

Biggest issue is there are no good EV's on the market. Closest thing is a Tesla Model 3, and that doesn't come close to a Golf R. Here in Canada anyway you are looking at $20k more for a Long Range. Unfortunately, when you break it down, the upfront costs doesn't justify the long term savings at all. Maybe in 8-10 yrs you break even, and that includes the extra maintenance costs for keeping an ICE running.

If the Model 3 had a nicer interior (hate the 20 year old Toyota Echo dash layout), or at least offered HUD, allowed simple things like CarPlay and Android Auto, and had a bit of life in it's driving experience - it would be there. I do want to try a new 2021 though. I wish Tesla spent more time making the UI in their tablet more usable vs providing people entertainment. That would make me a bit more interested in it. Otherwise I have to spend hundreds to make the car somewhat practical.

EV's are about 3-5 years away from having something decent, and I have a strong feeling that group is going to be giving people what they want is Hyundai / Kia / Genesis. They also will be overcoming a lot of the issues people have had with the Tesla's. VW I feel like has nothing really...like VW Vizzion looks like a Passat no one buys. The ONLY car today I would buy is an i4 M50...but BMW didn't put anything in between it and the base i4, I wish there was a lower performance but higher range version of the M50. Oh and maybe the Polestar 2, but for some drunk reason they made it FWD...and FWD bias with the AWD system.
 

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I own a MkVI Golf R. I've tuned the car to APR Stage 1+ and last year I had to replace the clutch. I opted for a lightened flywheel along with a Stage 2+ clutch. A bit of a mistake. Oh, the stage 2+ clutch with a single mass flywheel works all right but is noisy. So noisy, that when I was at a stoplight a driver next to me asked me if the car was a TDI :mad: (The noise goes away when the clutch is depressed and it's not a bad throwout bearing).
The car is really fun to drive, and I think that I would prefer the DSG when I spring for the MK VIII R. I'd be sure to get the APR Valet mode installed on the ECU, because the DSG isn't as theftproof as a 6 speed MT.
 

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I ordered my MK VIII R with a manual. I've always had manual cars, but I was seriously thinking about the DSG. But then I got to thinking that I buy a new car every eight to ten years. There may not be any manuals left in eight years, and my eight year-old, well maintained, low mileage manual MK VIII R will probably be worth a whole lot more at that time than a DSG car.
 

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My 2016 R has the MT but I knew pretty early that I would have been happier with the DSG. Not that it's perfect but I think it's a better match. I have gotten pretty good at modulating the throttle to keep things smooth when shifting but with a JB tune, clutch delay delete and a pedal box things can get pretty jerky. With the DSG the engine wouldn't go off-boost between shifts and non-performance driving would be less challenging to get right. For me it's not just about the numbers, it's about whether driving is fun more of the time or not. Seems like, the more powerful the car, the more likely an automated gearbox will suit it best.
 

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There may not be any manuals left in eight years, and my eight year-old, well maintained, low mileage manual MK VIII R will probably be worth a whole lot more at that time than a DSG car.
I think we're at the start of a bifurcation in the automotive market. The vast bulk (95%+) of the market will be increasingly electric, increasingly self-driving, increasingly about comfort and convenience, and probably increasingly subscription-based.

The remaining sliver of the market will be enthusiast vehicles. ICE will survive here. Stickshift will survive here. These cars will be deliberately stripped-down and de-contented compared to the technology-drenched cocoons in the above category, because they will be all about the driving experience.


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Discussion Starter · #38 · (Edited)
So clear the MT will engage the driver - no option not to....BUT...for those with DSG - do you (ever) get bored with the R? or is that nonsense talk?
 

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Without knowing where you drive I say it's not possible to answer the poll. Live in a city? DSG. You only roll in the wide open spaces, with or without twisty bits? Manual. Track it? Manual. But, having owned a 2012 R MT, and a '16 DSG and now a '19 DSG, I have to say left foot braking makes it possible to work the DSG a bit more than one might think. Me, I say the decision is entirely dependent on where and under what circumstances you'll be driving it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Without knowing where you drive I say it's not possible to answer the poll. Live in a city? DSG. You only roll in the wide open spaces, with or without twisty bits? Manual. Track it? Manual. But, having owned a 2012 R MT, and a '16 DSG and now a '19 DSG, I have to say left foot braking makes it possible to work the DSG a bit more than one might think. Me, I say the decision is entirely dependent on where and under what circumstances you'll be driving it.
good questions. I‘m in burbs of Chicago - fairly “dense”, not city dense, but not wide open roads. Stop and go, minimal express way - short commute, but not typically sitting in traffic. LOL -:rolleyes:
 
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