VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum banner

101 - 120 of 128 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
271 Posts
But that's just it, you can't b/c the R B8 is going to be way too short b/c the R has shorter stock springs so the lowering springs are even shorter which may cause issues. The shorter damper going from 6 to 8 is simply for preload on teh spring at extension; the damper is exactly the same otherwise. It would make more sense when using R springs to lower an to use the R B6.
I think we’re dancing around each other here. What you suggested is precisely what I am doing - I got 2019 Golf R B6’s and am installing them with 2019 Golf R springs (inc R Estate rears). That’s because B6’s are OEM ride-height performance dampers, and I’m putting OEM springs on.

In the case of B8’s, they’re lowered performance dampers. So you would need an aftermarket lowering spring, no OEM VW spring will go low enough for them.

so if someone wanted to lower their Alltrack, and by lower I mean lower than Golf/GTI/Golf R, it would be smartest to do aftermarket springs and B8’s. I’m “lowering” my Alltrack on Golf R springs with B6’s but it’s still what I would describe as “OEM-lowered,” since the R springs are the lowest offered in the entire model range.

woof
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
271 Posts
Depends on the product used to lower it- if you used an Alltrack specific lowering kit then there is no current solution and that is what KarstGeo is trying to illustrate.

If you lowered it with oem R springs then any oem R compatible damper will work.

The only true solution to lower the Alltrack with a higher performance damper is to use coilovers or oem R springs with an R compatible damper.

There is no Alltrack specific coilover kit, so you are stuck using GTI/R coilovers which tend to drop the vehicle lower than most seem to want to go.
EQT Coils can go higher than stock GTI height if Im remembering correctly. And they’re customizable F/R so you can get a stiffer rear setup for the increased weight I. The back of the AWD wagon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,086 Posts
I think we’re dancing around each other here. What you suggested is precisely what I am doing - I got 2019 Golf R B6’s and am installing them with 2019 Golf R springs (inc R Estate rears). That’s because B6’s are OEM ride-height performance dampers, and I’m putting OEM springs on.

In the case of B8’s, they’re lowered performance dampers. So you would need an aftermarket lowering spring, no OEM VW spring will go low enough for them.

so if someone wanted to lower their Alltrack, and by lower I mean lower than Golf/GTI/Golf R, it would be smartest to do aftermarket springs and B8’s. I’m “lowering” my Alltrack on Golf R springs with B6’s but it’s still what I would describe as “OEM-lowered,” since the R springs are the lowest offered in the entire model range.

woof
Yes, I understand the R B6s with R OE springs. You could use R B6s with say H&R Sport springs for the Alltrack b/c those are lower than the stock AT springs but likely the same height as the R stockers if that makes sense. If you used R lowering springs, yes, R B8s would be needed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Foodogg and PLF8593

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
That's the million dollar question isn't it? For me anyways. I'd have done it already if not for the contract work I do being pretty feast or famine lately. I'd love to be the guinea pig, but have been trying to watch my pennies lately. If things return to normal any time soon I'll pull the trigger.

I thought about going the B4 route, but am concerned the damping won't be much better than stock -- unless, that is, someone at Bilstein drove a stock Alltrack and said 'wir müssen diese Scheiße beheben' (we need to fix this ****) when they were readying the B4s. Would be cool to have a couple of people who can comment on B4s and B6s they've installed at all four corners. Really surprised no one has stepped up yet, though I can hardly talk.
Maxey, I'm like you; fiscally frugal for now on car stuff during COVID recession, plus for me some family schtuff has pushed back the soft-road adventuring that a lift plus Atlas is optimum arrangement worth experimenting on... maybe as I get closer to 90-100k miles it will be obviously time to replace strut dampers, and per the Bilstein website the B6 provide more stiffness for towing, another side use of mine...

Thinking the path now is try the B6 on taller wheel tires in 27" diameter: 17" wheels with All Terrain tires, for a bit more side stiffness in tread vs 27" nokians on 16"...

And hold off on lift as I can do a lot with that extra ride height already...
and keep the more stable towing/heavy cargo loaded with box on top and cargo rack back, plus AirLift 1000 for extra as needed, and see how the B6's add to that plus rebound.

Then try the Atlas rears if/when I lift later...

I also want to try the APR1 25% boost in torque, but dont need to push that grunt further out the rpm axis by going IS20, is38 plus add new dp, ic, clutch, brakes to go with all that...plus the higher octane tune and then run risk of having to fill s tank with lower if in a rural area with only 87...here on the high plains.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Foo, that's where my thinking is for now also -- wait until I can free up more 'play' money at some point, and just tolerate the stock dampers in the meantime. There's nothing wrong with them wear-wise, but as has been said many times, the damping sucks. I don't think the stockers have deteriorated much at all since new (I'm at 32k now) so it will be interesting to seen when they demand replacement. Although maybe it will be hard to tell what with slow, gradual wear and their generally abysmal behavior even when new. I drive a fairly nice, old 2001 Honda Civic as my work car, so after driving that all week, getting into the Alltrack feels like getting into a high-end Audi by comparison. The Civic has copious amounts of wind and road noise, but I tolerate it for the near 40mpg economy, not to mention it's nice to drive an old car that's already been pre-parking lot dinged and windshield chipped etc.

Anyway, after upgrading dampers, about the only other thing I'd consider is maybe the APR tune so we are of a like mind there too. I've been down the modification road before, but dammit, I guess I'm growing up...or just getting older, ha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Just ordered B6 for the front from TireRack. Keeping stock springs.
I have B6 in the rear with a neuspeed RSB/end links and have been going back n forth about which to go with, B4 or B6.
Let you know what they’re like after install.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,086 Posts
Just ordered B6 for the front from TireRack. Keeping stock springs.
I have B6 in the rear with a neuspeed RSB/end links and have been going back n forth about which to go with, B4 or B6.
Let you know what they’re like after install.
What is driving not getting matched B6s out back?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Karst, if I understand ForumBro correctly, he already has B6 out back, and will be now installing B6 up front, so he will, in fact, have matched B6s front and back. Correct me if I'm wrong, ForumBro, but you were going back and forth on B4s or B6s up front, but ultimately decided on B6s. The good news is it sounds like it will be on stock springs, so with the only variable being the RSB/endlinks he has already installed, we should have our first real world review of the elusive Alltrack on B6s and stock springs.

ForumBro, it would be great if you gave us an initial review, and then another one after, say, 500, and 1000 miles, as I have read many B6 users (on other cars) say that the dampers seem almost too stiff at first, but soften up after a while and feel much more forgiving than initially.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Maxymum, you are correct. I have the rear already w B6 and upgraded sway/end links.
Should be here in a few dayz. May be a week or so before I install.
Happy to give a review afterinstall and later on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Great, FBro, we're all very much looking forward to it.

If they are firm without being harsh, I think some us will make the move also. They probably will seem harsh at first, but give 'em a little time to break in as stated above.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,086 Posts
Great, FBro, we're all very much looking forward to it.

If they are firm without being harsh, I think some us will make the move also. They probably will seem harsh at first, but give 'em a little time to break in as stated above.
There should be no breaking-in which would indicate a loss of damping. They are what they are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Foodogg

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
There should be no breaking-in which would indicate a loss of damping. They are what they are.
I have read anectdotally in some BMW and other forums that they will, in fact, take some time to 'bed in' or 'settle in' or however you want to term it, after which the ride will become more compliant. Makes sense to me -- after all they've been sitting in a box for however long, and then all of a sudden they're installed in each corner holding up 800 lbs or so, so it makes sense that they will settle into their natural stroke after some use. I'm no expert on these things, so am all ears if someone else wants to chime in on this matter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
271 Posts
I have read anectdotally in some BMW and other forums that they will, in fact, take some time to 'bed in' or 'settle in' or however you want to term it, after which the ride will become more compliant. Makes sense to me -- after all they've been sitting in a box for however long, and then all of a sudden they're installed in each corner holding up 800 lbs or so, so it makes sense that they will settle into their natural stroke after some use. I'm no expert on these things, so am all ears if someone else wants to chime in on this matter.
Makes sense to me too. But I’m in IT, not automotive engineering :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
271 Posts
this thread now has me worried, I ordered B6 for my car off eBay recently. Honestly - I do not remember whether I entered my car as an Alltrack or a Golf R, so I now need to verify my B6 PN’s are for a Golf R, not an Alltrack.

If, by accidental chance, I ordered Alltrack B6’s, I’d be happy to install them on stock springs. If I’m sufficiently pleased with the comfort/performance then I’d be ecstatic to retain OEM ride height.

If I got Golf R B6’s, then I’m just as happy to move forward with my current plan of 6MT Golf R front springs + R Estate Rear springs w/ Golf R B6’s.

But I will admit that, going into this, I was under the impression that there was no such thing as Alltrack-specific B6’s, and that I was stuck with a Golf R spring + Golf R B6 options. I wish I knew better before lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
Makes sense to me too. But I’m in IT, not automotive engineering :)
Nuttin wrong with IT...😉
Some of the very best facts vs butt dyno placebo effect have been carefully collected by a professional rock hound...

We are all just trying what works here.
Ever see Ford vs Ferrari?
Did they rely upon Muh Feelz and over the top hyperbole, ie Critical RaceCAR Theory?
No, they did not...they swapped stuff in and took notes on what works, by facts and logic. 😎

Only one way to find out:

1. BEFORE:Measure top of wheel fender arch to ground, front and back on current shocks/struts and springs.

2. AFTER install: same, and keep the cargo load the same.

3. Check again at 500+ miles.

4. Report back here.

Do it for SCIENCE!

PS: I'd be especially interested in butt dyno on front rebound damping at highway speed over dips: AFTER install do you get LESS of the floatybouncy house launch on the up 'rebound'?

If unclear- go find a stretch of road where the AT is launched, more so than other cars, when going over longer length dips. Not the short bumps like road segment uneven-ness...more like the places where a road has sunk or heaved due frost, or the crappy long potholes that Caltrans cant be bothered to fix here in Kali...😉

That poor up stroke damping is my (and some others) main complaint with OEM Sachs up front, and in addition to tightening up the cornering over bumps, is my "why to buy". Especially disconcerting when heavy cargo loaded rear saggy butt uncorrected, or towing.

To your ebay dilemma: look at the bright side-these will work for you one way or the other, and if not there are undoubtedly buyers for B6 by GSW or AT owners reaching end of warranty or OEM damper life...
And in the meantime- be proud to consider yourself a pioneer.
For SCIENCE!

Plus I appreciate your logic as I also like to go one step at a time to see what is the dynamic effect of ONE component before changing the next thing or a combo of TWO things,
( like lowering by shorter springs and changed struts))
S o this new and discrete piece of the AT suspension puzzle
(reported new Bilstein part number that infers new B6 front strut was made specifically longer than old GSW B6,
in order to fit AT longer springs")

Is a key data point heretofore undocumented...its...

MOAR facts, For SCIENCE!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Only one way to find out:

1. BEFORE:Measure top of wheel fender arch to ground, front and back on current shocks/struts and springs.

2. AFTER install: same, and keep the cargo load the same.

3. Check again at 500+ miles.

4. Report back here.
As I recall, that's exactly what one of the guys on BMW forum I referenced earlier did. His car on new B6s did drop a small amount after a few weeks and then settled there. But I agree, I think were all just trying to find a better solution than OEM for our cars, so we should stay focused on that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
271 Posts
So - in an interesting turn of events, I appear to have unwittingly purchase Alltrack-specific B6's. Or at least it seems so, based on how LONG they are. Definitely longer than the struts I've seen posted on the GTI forums for years.

I sent a message to Bilstein support verifying the PN's. If i did actually get the Alltrack B6's then it'd be a great mistake, I didn't WANT to lose OEM ride height, I just believed the only 4Motion MQB B6's were for Golf R's and were designed around that spring length. Will report back lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,086 Posts
So - in an interesting turn of events, I appear to have unwittingly purchase Alltrack-specific B6's. Or at least it seems so, based on how LONG they are. Definitely longer than the struts I've seen posted on the GTI forums for years.

I sent a message to Bilstein support verifying the PN's. If i did actually get the Alltrack B6's then it'd be a great mistake, I didn't WANT to lose OEM ride height, I just believed the only 4Motion MQB B6's were for Golf R's and were designed around that spring length. Will report back lol
I'm sorry but still somewhat confused here - why would it be a mistake to get the Alltrack-specific B6s?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,086 Posts
A few general comments from me on the Bilstein B6/8 sport dampers w/r to rebound/compression damping/ride height. Disclaimer is I am on the GSW 4Mo. I recently swapped in some B8s for my stockers on my H&R sport springs which BTW are the same spring/part no. as for the AT. I have 0.25" more height out back now with the B8s. I take this as the higher pressure gas mono-tube design requiring more force to move vs. stockers acting effectively like a higher rate spring in terms of ride height - this was talked about quite a bit few pages back. Front remained the same.

The B8s and B6s are the same damper keep in mind, B8 just 1" shorter for proper preload on shorter lowering springs. The rebound control is MUCH improved over stock. I never felt like the stock dampers were under-damped w/r to compression but the rebound at speed, as Foo as discussed above on lows where you drop in and "jump out" got a little unnerving at high speeds. That is much more controlled. I translate this for you fine AT folks that it would be the same for you - the AT when I test drove was bouncy to me (not enough rebound damping) and seemed significantly under-damped vs. the GSW. The AT-specific B6s on stock AT springs should ride great! The R B6s with stock R springs should ride well too.
 
101 - 120 of 128 Posts
Top