[atomicalex]

With ABS disabled, I feel like I can control the car a lot better, even the way it slides, I can get it to skid sideways on purpose a bit depending on when I break that threshold of traction, then power out of it when I want.

You are confusing ABS with stability control.

No modern ABS/SC system ever fully disables ABS. What is is "disabled" is the response to yaw. The ABS is still fully functional (and functioning), but treating the car as if there is no slip angle. This means the car can slide and loop without single wheel intervention. It also reduces the impact of power cuts, if the SC system has integrated that.

My B5 has a crappy early-gen Bosch SC system named ESC. It sucks and I generally turn it off. However, turning that aspect of the system off does not do anything with the ABS behaviour related to stopping. It simply means the ABS pump will not be used to prevent the car from rotating or making forward progress in slippery condtions.

Even the Pedal Dance mode on the BRZ does not disable ABS function. It simply turns off yaw sensing and all related responses.

The only vehicle I own that can have ABS fully disabled is my BMW motorbike, and ABS can be disabled on that because it is a giant overgrown dirt bike, and only in the very last couple of years has ABS programming improved to the point where it might be appropriate to use in very low traction conditions like dirt riding.

 

[atomicalex]

I'm a fan of ABS, but in those situations I think the truck would stop faster without it. I recall the first Audis had an ABS defeat button for snow/ice conditions.

No, it wouldn't, but it sure does seem like it. It's how we feel stick-slip friction. The wagon does the same thing on ice - full ABS freakout. The BRZ grins and says how does my ass look?

Those Audis had the same pumps as my BMW bike. LOL OMG they are/were horrid and the programming was turrible. They used fixed point sensing, with no credit given for ramping of speed. Just bare point in time speed differential. Today, the programming takes into about behaviour over time and other factors to determine if the threshhold is exceeded.

 

[l88m22vette]

^ Agreed about millennial Audi ESC, my TT got squirrely in the wet and it helped, but in the snow it ruins the ability of the car and AWD to do what it is supposed to do. Oh, its a little slippery? Well, instead of using the AWD to turn through the slip the car goes "BRRRRNNNNN" and you lose any semblance of control because the car just wants to STOP NOW. This wasn't just me pretending to be Colin McRae, this was during normal driving and having the car just give up when the ESC started flashing. I didn't start turning off ESC until I had a bunch of miles in that seat, but in snow the TT is better when it can slip and be chucked around a bit so now I always turn it off.

 

[Air and water do mix]

No, it wouldn't, but it sure does seem like it. It's how we feel stick-slip friction. The wagon does the same thing on ice - full ABS freakout. The BRZ grins and says how does my ass look?

Those Audis had the same pumps as my BMW bike. LOL OMG they are/were horrid and the programming was turrible. They used fixed point sensing, with no credit given for ramping of speed. Just bare point in time speed differential. Today, the programming takes into about behaviour over time and other factors to determine if the threshhold is exceeded.

That's how I understand it. If memory serves the only time when wheel lockup is actually providing a quicker stop is in deeper snow or gravel when it bunches up in front of the wheels. It takes energy to pile up the snow or rocks and drag it along, which slows the car more.

 

[ADDvanced]

Okay so I'm not crazy. I just hate ABS on almost anything I drive, which, granted, is mostly old ****boxes, so... take it with a grain of salt. But in the snow, I hate it.

 

[absoluteczech]

take it with a grain of salt.

yea pretty sure no ones taking your bizarre views of abs serious

 

[PoorHouse]

No, it wouldn't, but it sure does seem like it. It's how we feel stick-slip friction. The wagon does the same thing on ice - full ABS freakout. The BRZ grins and says how does my ass look?

Those Audis had the same pumps as my BMW bike. LOL OMG they are/were horrid and the programming was turrible. They used fixed point sensing, with no credit given for ramping of speed. Just bare point in time speed differential. Today, the programming takes into about behaviour over time and other factors to determine if the threshhold is exceeded.

Thanks - good info.

To your earlier point as a 49 year old I did have to train myself (and still occasionally remind myself) to let the ABS work. My initial thought still defaults to "OMG Not Stopping Pump The Brakes!!"

That's how I understand it. If memory serves the only time when wheel lockup is actually providing a quicker stop is in deeper snow or gravel when it bunches up in front of the wheels. It takes energy to pile up the snow or rocks and drag it along, which slows the car more.

I recall seeing that as well. I remember a C&D or R&T article when the original Quattros came out with a variety of tests of Quattro vs. Non Quattro, ABS on and off, etc.

 

[atomicalex]

Okay so I'm not crazy. I just hate ABS on almost anything I drive, which, granted, is mostly old ****boxes, so... take it with a grain of salt. But in the snow, I hate it.

No, you're wrong. You are conflating ABS function with traction control and while both employ the ABS pump, they are two sepearate bits of code and functionality.

 

[Senior Member]

Modern ABS and traction control systems are so good, most people don't even know they are working; and complain about "engine flat sopt" "turbo lag" coming out of a corner with a 350+hp car.

 

[Nealric]

Modern ABS and traction control systems are so good, most people don't even know they are working; and complain about "engine flat sopt" "turbo lag" coming out of a corner with a 350+hp car.

Don't most cars have a flashing light when traction control comes on? I know mine does.

 

[Senior Member]

Don't most cars have a flashing light when traction control comes on? I know mine does.

They don't flash for minor stuff.

 

[LT1M21Stingray]

Don't most cars have a flashing light when traction control comes on? I know mine does.

Mine does. I can also turn it off.

 

[Air and water do mix]

To your earlier point as a 49 year old I did have to train myself (and still occasionally remind myself) to let the ABS work. My initial thought still defaults to "OMG Not Stopping Pump The Brakes!!"

Yup. I'm 55 and had to re-learn how to brake in the slick stuff. I mostly let ABS do its job since it can brake wheels independently and I simply can't.

I recall seeing that as well. I remember a C&D or R&T article when the original Quattros came out with a variety of tests of Quattro vs. Non Quattro, ABS on and off, etc.

I didn't read that anywhere, but I could see one of them (especially C&D in their heyday) doing something like that. Man, Car and Driver was such a good magazine back then. I couldn't decide if I liked the technical information more than the entertainment side of it the most. Probably the entertainment.

 

[Cabin Pics]

No, you're wrong. You are conflating ABS function with traction control and while both employ the ABS pump, they are two sepearate bits of code and functionality.

I think he's referring to threshold braking and trying to get the car to rotate on brakes. Which, if you have a vehicle with ABS, especially the earlier cars, can be a huge pain in the ass.

Take my E46 for instance. I can disable ESC, I can disable TCS, I cannot (unless I pull a fuse) disable ABS. When I drive the car hard and I want to threshold brake to induce rotation the ABS kicks in as soon as I try to rotate, with the two other systems fully deactivated. I've experienced it, and @Sold Over Sticker has experienced it. The only work around is pulling the fuse for the ABS, in which case the car will absolutely rotate on the brakes if you want to induce that kind of behavior.

So I could see how in the snow if you were trying to use the brakes to induce rotation the ABS would be highly aggravating. Newer cars are much better about this, obviously.

Now, if I were to leave ESC and TCS on we wouldn't even get to the part where we begin threshold braking because the systems are so overbearing they'll start activating when simply cornering with no brakes applied at all. In the real world with someone driving under normal circumstances there is absolutely no reason, none, to ever not want ABS. It's a safety feature and it absolutely works. When at the track however, at least in my car, I'd pull the fuse.

 

[Sporin]

Thanks - good info.

To your earlier point as a 49 year old I did have to train myself (and still occasionally remind myself) to let the ABS work. My initial thought still defaults to "OMG Not Stopping Pump The Brakes!!"

Also 49, also had to teach myself that early on when ABS became ubiquitous.

Nowadays, the kids barely even learn threshold braking in driver's ed. It's stomp-stay-steer.

 

[LT1M21Stingray]

Summer daily: No ABS
Winter daily: ABS

 

[atomicalex]

Take my E46 for instance. I can disable ESC, I can disable TCS, I cannot (unless I pull a fuse) disable ABS. When I drive the car hard and I want to threshold brake to induce rotation the ABS kicks in as soon as I try to rotate, with the two other systems fully deactivated. I've experienced it, and @Sold Over Sticker has experienced it. The only work around is pulling the fuse for the ABS, in which case the car will absolutely rotate on the brakes if you want to induce that kind of behavior.

That is a residual programming issue. E46 means 2nd gen. I'm guessing it has to do with the lack of steering angle sensing. One of the big upgrades to ABS in general was steering angle sensing as it allowed side to side slip ranges to increase dramatically without compromising the basic function of ABS. Basically it allows speed differentials to be corrected more effectively.

One of the coolest things about ABS is how brutally effective it is, and how so much of the programming effort these days goes into making it not actuate.

 

[Senior Member]

One of the coolest things about ABS is how brutally effective it is, and how so much of the programming effort these days goes into making it not actuate.

Exactly, which makes a lot of people think they are superheroes.

 

[Cabin Pics]

That is a residual programming issue. E46 means 2nd gen. I'm guessing it has to do with the lack of steering angle sensing. One of the big upgrades to ABS in general was steering angle sensing as it allowed side to side slip ranges to increase dramatically without compromising the basic function of ABS. Basically it allows speed differentials to be corrected more effectively.

One of the coolest things about ABS is how brutally effective it is, and how so much of the programming effort these days goes into making it not actuate.

I believe ADDvanced has older cars, so if he was trying to get the ass to come around by braking, if the system was old and crappy like in my car, ABS would definitely prevent that. It's some seriously intrusive sh*t.

 

[Sold Over Sticker]

That is a residual programming issue. E46 means 2nd gen. I'm guessing it has to do with the lack of steering angle sensing. One of the big upgrades to ABS in general was steering angle sensing as it allowed side to side slip ranges to increase dramatically without compromising the basic function of ABS. Basically it allows speed differentials to be corrected more effectively.

One of the coolest things about ABS is how brutally effective it is, and how so much of the programming effort these days goes into making it not actuate.

Yeah, Erik's car is in the between phase on ABS systems. His late build, and my friends early build E90 both had ABS systems that were annoying. One clack of ABS on turn in, and wham, all your rotation is gone. Worst part is that they're a normal BMW brake pedal, which means it's ok, not great, and you don't get a ton of feedback to know that it's coming. Erik saw me do this first hand in his car.

Back in 2010 I was working for Lotus at Pebble Beach, and they flew all the chassis engineers out to work the booth along with us dweebs. I complimented the lead Elise guy on the ABS in the car. "I can threshold brake, out brake the ABS, and rotate the car on the brakes and never trigger it, but if I get spooked and drill the brakes, I have the safety net of ABS." 16 years ago when the Elise launched, that was quite the feat.

These days? Yeah, I've driven hushy's BRZ which is a clone of yours, and you can ride ABS into the apex, nice and rotated assuming you're steering the car correctly. SS is the same. ABS will clack away if you do it wrong, but as long as the steering angle and yaw rate are cool, you can threshold brake hard into the apex getting loose on the brakes and it doesn't care.

Modern systems are amazing. SS in Track mode or the Evora in Race mode can be hung 3/4 turn of countersteer sideways before the hand of god slows down the shenanigans, and if you accidentally trigger ABS on corner entry, it just does it's job and the car stays right on the line you intend.

Regardless of all of that, any kind of ABS or even basic first gen stability control system are so much better for new drivers than no system.