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Regardless of all of that, any kind of ABS or even basic first gen stability control system are so much better for new drivers than no system.
Bingo.

It doesn't matter how it reacts when we're pushing a car. To an average driver doing average driver thing, ABS is absolutely necessary. Particularly with high school aged children.
 

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Bingo.

It doesn't matter how it reacts when we're pushing a car. To an average driver doing average driver thing, ABS is absolutely necessary. Particularly with high school aged children.
Wait, what? How the heck did us old farts all manage to obtain a drivers license then?

In my day (in Europe) cars didn't even have seatbelts in the rear. They barely existed in the front, and nobody used them.
 

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Wait, what? How the heck did us old farts all manage to obtain a drivers license then?

In my day (in Europe) cars didn't even have seatbelts in the rear. They barely existed in the front, and nobody used them.
Not sure if serious. Cars are safer now due to tech like stability control, ABS, and seat belts. I don’t have kids, but I’d personally want my kid in the newest, safest car I could afford, not something without ABS or seatbelts.
 

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Wait, what? How the heck did us old farts all manage to obtain a drivers license then?

In my day (in Europe) cars didn't even have seatbelts in the rear. They barely existed in the front, and nobody used them.
I'm not sure if serious. But if we have the technology in place to keep people safe, I think we should use it.

My kids will be in the safest car we feel like spending money on at the time. Let's see.... 2033 my daughter will be 16. I figure by that time I'll probably get her a 10-14 year old Corolla or Camry. Which will be what our new cars are now.

Are you saying you'd rather throw your kids in a car with no ABS, seatbelts, or any stability/traction control? I'm not saying they shouldn't get to experience something like that, but it would be silly for day to day.

Particularly because you can get cars from the early 2000's that have all those features for $2,000 or less.
 

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You don't know how to use it properly. Which is pretty normal if you are >40YO, I would say. ABS does not stand for Antilock Braking System. It stands for Anti Blocking System, a Bosch trademark that was released to general use due to the absolute unit capabilities of the system. A brake block occurs when pressure is not released after a lockup. This is why the old "pump the brakes" thing on non-ABS cars. Pumping the brakes allows the brakes to unblock and the wheels to roll a bit, enabling steering and engagement of the stick-slip friction threshold. On ABS cars, you want to jam the brakes on and let the system work, all the while steering where you want to go. People who learned to drive without it get scared of the lockup and lift before the ABS works its magic, and things go predictably to hell. People who take driving seriously should approach ABS differently - as a 24/7 on demand braking instructor.

Come to threshold as quickly and smoothly as possible. If done right, no ABS activation. If f'ed up, ABS activation and my ass is still safe. In both cases, steering control is maintained.
All of this.

A year or so ago I did some driving in an old Crown Vic and Slummit Point with BSR. The instructors were able to kill the ABS at will. They put everyone through many different scenarios with and without ABS. It was amazing to see just how bad some people were without the ABS.

Sidenote: Watching people from areas with no snow/ice on a skid pad is hilarious.
 

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I'm not sure if serious. But if we have the technology in place to keep people safe, I think we should use it.

My kids will be in the safest car we feel like spending money on at the time. Let's see.... 2033 my daughter will be 16. I figure by that time I'll probably get her a 10-14 year old Corolla or Camry. Which will be what our new cars are now.

Are you saying you'd rather throw your kids in a car with no ABS, seatbelts, or any stability/traction control? I'm not saying they shouldn't get to experience something like that, but it would be silly for day to day.

Particularly because you can get cars from the early 2000's that have all those features for $2,000 or less.
Yeah, and it's one thing to say "eff it, I survived" when it's hypothetical. When it comes to actually watch your own kid back out of the driveway on their own, you'll likely want them in something with reasonable safety tech.

On this topic, something occurs to me. Now I'm 49, almost 50. My oldest sister is 4 years older. My high school class of '89 in my town was the first senior class to not lose someone to a car accident death in over a decade. My sister's class lost 2. And this is in very small NH towns. Teen car crash deaths used to be embarrassingly common.

Fast forward to 2021 and I can't remember the last teenager in my current town who died in a car accident. It's not that accidents stopped happening, it's just that the cars are measurably safer, and accidents are more survivable.

 

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^ why I love TCL. :p
 

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Most fathers get their daughters a Civic or a Jetta.. you though my friend, you’re bold. Hahaha.
 

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Yeah, and it's one thing to say "eff it, I survived" when it's hypothetical.
Yep. Survivorship bias. Grave markers don't have 'eff it, I survived' on them. I, too, survived bouncing around in uncrashworthy cars with no restraints as a kid (or, apparently, even a car seat when I was an infant), but the difference is that in the '70s and '80s there was no other choice - modern safety tech simply hadn't been invented yet. Now there's no excuse.

In 2004 I was the passenger and my ex was the driver when we were hit in an intersection by someone who plowed through making a left turn. Her 1997 Integra was totaled; her head broke the driver's window as the other car slammed into her door. She had traumatic head injury, near-constant migraine from then on, and personality change (for the worse). Had we taken my 1999 GTI instead, the side airbag would have been a life-changing difference.
 

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I personally want MYSELF in the newest, safest car I can afford, because I have an aversion to pain, injury, and death.
I mean I'll do risky things like drive 560hp Superformance Cobras, and own an E9, but yeah, my DD's are new and loaded with safety. You get one run through life, and I'm like you. Let's stack the odds in our favor.
 

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You guys make me question my 2008 GTI. I definitely try to put my kids in it as little as possible. All the time we take my wife's Sienna but I am thinking to go back to a Jetta (or equivalent) post Covid era.
 

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A modern GTI is a pretty safe car to crash.

I unfortunately had some practice.

Big difference between 2008, and 1988 (ABS, Multiple airbags, offset crash testing, seatbelt tensioners, Stability control, etc). There haven't been any huge leaps in safety since 2008, besides auto braking, which is still not available on every modern car.


I think what guys were worried about was the lack of airbags, and modem crash standards.
 
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