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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (einsig)

Quote, originally posted by einsig »
Chris, the original question was pertaining to flashing APR chips. Jeff mentioned that a failed reflash on an APR enhanced ECU could fry it. Since EMCS allows no data transfer through the OBDII port to the ROMs on the daughterboard there is no way a failed reflash will affect an APR ECU. It's like trying to upload a new BIOS from a floppy drive that isn't connected to the motherboard. No matter what the data is, it ain't gonna work in fact it ain't gonna do anything.

You could be right. But it will fail the reflash at best. Looks like we will all see once the dealers start.
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (einsig)

Quote, originally posted by einsig »
Chris, the original question was pertaining to flashing APR chips. Jeff mentioned that a failed reflash on an APR enhanced ECU could fry it. Since EMCS allows no data transfer through the OBDII port to the ROMs on the daughterboard there is no way a failed reflash will affect an APR ECU. It's like trying to upload a new BIOS from a floppy drive that isn't connected to the motherboard. No matter what the data is, it ain't gonna work in fact it ain't gonna do anything.

I havent' read anyting from APR that says what will or wont' happen and no one with actual experience has posted. I dont' really see an orginal question being asked just someone who I responded to who is claiming to have been reflashed in a car there is no flash currently available for.
for example I have seen ECUs that were modified with encrypted chips. the flash failed and the car still ran however the ECU had a permanent internal error fault that could not be erased. This I have seen several times and it remains even after the performance chip has been changed or even reverted totally to stock, which would lead one to believe that other parts of the ECU are also possible affected which may or may not be blocked by certain chip tuners methods.
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (XSiVE)

my question is if you have one of the aftemarket chips are you experiecing any start up misfires if not why would you want your ecm flashed to start with just cause vw offers it doesnt mean you have to have it done
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (chris86vw)

Quote, originally posted by chris86vw »

I havent' read anyting from APR that says what will or wont' happen and no one with actual experience has posted. I dont' really see an orginal question being asked just someone who I responded to who is claiming to have been reflashed in a car there is no flash currently available for.

Just cause you didn't see the question doesn't mean it wasn't there. Here is Jeff's statement and my original question:
Quote, originally posted by J. Moss »
A*R’s chip even locked into stock mode will not allow a reflash. Therefore will fail the update and possibly even kill the ecu.

Quote, originally posted by einsig »

The APR won't allow a flash, yes. But will a failed flash kill your ECU? No way. Care to explain that one?

BTW there is someone who had his ECU attempted to be reflashed with APR. It didn't do anything except VAG Tool reported the upload was not successful. I believe he posted that in the big thread on the reflash TSB put up by Gambit.

Quote, originally posted by chris86vw »
for example I have seen ECUs that were modified with encrypted chips. the flash failed and the car still ran however the ECU had a permanent internal error fault that could not be erased. This I have seen several times and it remains even after the performance chip has been changed or even reverted totally to stock, which would lead one to believe that other parts of the ECU are also possible affected which may or may not be blocked by certain chip tuners methods.

We are talking about a reflash frying an ECU, not a fault code saying there was a failed attempt. All I'm saying is a failed reflash won't harm the ROMs on the APR daughterboard. It is physically impossible and unless you know of some "ghost in the machine" VW is using then they can't be affected.
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (turbovw18)

Quote, originally posted by turbovw18 »
yeah really... how will a failed reflash kill an ecu...

If the reflash fails, he can kill your ECU by ripping it out and stompin' on it with his Air Force Ones...
...I suppose.

In all seriousness though, I think I'd just tell my dealer to NOT TOUCH my ECU.
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (einsig)

Quote, originally posted by einsig »

BTW there is someone who had his ECU attempted to be reflashed with APR. It didn't do anything except VAG Tool reported the upload was not successful. I believe he posted that in the big thread on the reflash TSB put up by Gambit.
.

WHO?? there is no car currently out that VW has a flash available for that APR offers programming for. Up till now all 1.8T factory upgrades were done through ECU replacement not through flashing. The only software any dealers have for flashing is for the 2L.
As for it not killing the ECU all I see is you saying that it wont' kill it, last I checked you have no authority to make this claim and the only claim jeff made is that it will not accept it (fact), and that it may kill the ECU (not stated as fact)
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (einsig)

Quote, originally posted by einsig »

We are talking about a reflash frying an ECU, not a fault code saying there was a failed attempt. All I'm saying is a failed reflash won't harm the ROMs on the APR daughterboard. It is physically impossible and unless you know of some "ghost in the machine" VW is using then they can't be affected.

I still jsut dont' see how you are saying that it cant' be affected. I see one claim that his ECU was attempted to be flashed, and claims by you that it wont' allow it. Has APR made a statement that it wont' allow it, have you tried yourself. All I am saying is that one person made a post that said this may happen I dont' know, he never said it would happen, he asked the question. The only person to respond is yourself and you ahve offered no proof to back up your statements.
Also if you notice I pointed out that others have been flashed and even when the tuned chip has been removed the ECU is still not functional, well it functions but has permanent internal error faults that can not be erased. So no I am not even talking about it not being able to overwrite the APR chip I am referring to the fact that other parts of the ECU seem to be affected. And this IS from personal experienced not uneducated random postings.


Modified by chris86vw at 6:58 PM 5-7-2003
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (chris86vw)

Quote, originally posted by chris86vw »

I still jsut dont' see how you are saying that it cant' be affected. I see one claim that his ECU was attempted to be flashed, and claims by you that it wont' allow it. Has APR made a statement that it wont' allow it, have you tried yourself. All I am saying is that one person made a post that said this may happen I dont' know, he never said it would happen, he asked the question. The only person to respond is yourself and you ahve offered no proof to back up your statements.

You are the one that brought up the fact that no one has posted about APR being reflashed. I simply said someone did. It wasn't to back up anything I'm saying becuase frankly i don't know who posted, what the real story is. But I just wanted to say that someone has had experience with it and they might know something. From what they say they don't have a fried ECU, FWIW.
What I am trying to say is how a OBDII reflash cannot affect the APR ROMs on the daughterboard, nothing more nothing less. You say I have no facts to back this up, well I do. It is simple computer engineering, if the data doesn't reach the ROMs it can't corrupt it or change it. In the case of the APR ECU the data cannot reach the ROMs on the daughterboard via an OBDII flash. That info comes from APR and their discussions on EMCS and the home programmer. If those ROMs could accept OBDII port flashes don't you think their home programmer would plug into the OBDII port? It doesn't you need to crack the ECU and plug it into the daughterboard. I'm not coming to this conclusion based on random posts either. It's information straight from APR, the Motronic book and my knowledge of electrical enigneering/computers that I learned getting my Bachelors of Science in computer engineering and that I'm furthing in graduate school. But what do i know I don't work for VW.
I've agreed that it is possible to store a fault code or data elswhere on the ECU, but it cannot fry the primary engine management software located on the daughterboard. I honestly have no idea what kind of data they would store elswhere on the ECU in the instance of a failed flash. However, and this is all I'm trying to say, is if the new data being flashed isn't even getting to the daughterboard then how can it affect/corrupt the data on the ROMs? It can't. Anything else you feel I'm trying to say, imply, insinuate, hint at, or whatever is simply you reading something into what I'm trying to explain.
Edit add: I won't be posting about this any longer. I've explained what I know several times. If you still want to talk about it I'm all ears and open to anything you might know since you do have close ties to dealers, lets just do it on IM or private email. Speaking of dealers, where do you work now? I just want to know so I make sure not to take myc ar there



Modified by einsig at 11:15 PM 5-7-2003
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (einsig)

Right, I understand that you are saying that the APR daughterboard cannot be affected. However I am saying that I have seen personally that other portions of the ECU are and can be affected by attempting to reflash, you see to keep ignoring the fact that I mentioned this several times and are only concerned with that the APR portion can not be flashed. As an electrical engineer you should realize that there are lots of other parts of the ECU that can be affected, and also there are several reasons why what you are saying is not entirely true, but I Am late for work so I'll get to that later.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (einsig & chris)

All of us should be able to agree that the problem noted in the beginning is a scenario that is going to come into play very soon.
How each individual tuner or end user deals with is in air.
Whatever brand A or N or U or... does at this point to help their clients now is important. As we should all be able to see that this problem is coming.
No excuses as everyone now knows!
to all. No hard feelings. Even if none of the other tuners "Officially" stepped in to answer the questions. (I contacted a few of them and got no responses...)
Moss out for now.
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (J. Moss)

So what would you do if you were me?
Ive got the apr chip and an awp engine. I do have cold start problems. Two times the car stalled as it was turning on
now its just a rough start with some shaking.
If i go to the dealer wtf are they going to do. I WILL NOT sign a waiver if it wont coverage damages, but i want it fixed. Will the new coils alone solve this?
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (igotaprestent4u)

You could look for a spare ECU...
I'd be afraid that once you decline to have your chip reflashed, that could give VW exactly what they need to deny future warranty work. I'd LOVE to see the text on that waiver.
-Imp
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (J. Moss)

Yeah, I forgot about that. Still, it's not impossible, just a royal PITA. Oh well, just another reason for me to appreciate my 2001 AWW.
-Imp
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (igotaprestent4u)

Quote, originally posted by igotaprestent4u »
So what would you do if you were me?
Ive got the apr chip and an awp engine. I do have cold start problems. Two times the car stalled as it was turning on
now its just a rough start with some shaking.
If i go to the dealer wtf are they going to do. I WILL NOT sign a waiver if it wont coverage damages, but i want it fixed. Will the new coils alone solve this?

No worries. If VW comes out with new ECU code to address this problem then APR can put it up on their website. For instance here http://www.goapr.com/VW/suppor....html is the latest code they have for GTI's. Just download the new version and upload it to your ECU with the EMCS program adaptor or have your APR do ir for you.
Don't let J. Moss scare you. The sky is not falling. If he honestly believes the same company which will not fully recall 4 plastic pieces from the window regulators when they are known bad is going to foot the bill to reflash everyone's ecu to troubleshoot a few cars with chronic cold start problems then I have some swamp land for you at a great price.
He is just trying to sell some of the chips he happens to carry. If he carried APR then he would be making declarations about out of control surging and dangerous boost spikes on GIAC chips. Which, BTW, would also be marketting.
Besides J.Moss, this has been a non-issue on this BBS, which is well known for having no mercy on real issues like coilpacks and window regulators and MKIII side moldings falling off. If it were a real problem, then it would have come up a long time ago.
Don't worry so much. VW is not going to spend millions of dollars to hunt down enthusiasts' cars and punish them.
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (J. Moss)

Quote, originally posted by J. Moss »
All of us should be able to agree that the problem noted in the beginning is a scenario that is going to come into play very soon.
How each individual tuner or end user deals with is in air.
Whatever brand A or N or U or... does at this point to help their clients now is important. As we should all be able to see that this problem is coming.
No excuses as everyone now knows!
to all. No hard feelings. Even if none of the other tuners "Officially" stepped in to answer the questions. (I contacted a few of them and got no responses...)

I know I said I wouldn't post on this thread, but I just have to say http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif and
for Jeff. You are completely right, this could become a major issue in the next year. Only tuners who step up and change with the seasons will last. I spoke to APR and suposedly something major is brewing, but in the mean time they will offer an update that includes the new Bosch base program (which is more than sufficient at this time).


Modified by einsig at 9:08 PM 5-8-2003
 

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Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (einsig)

VW recently tried to flash my computer and was unable to. I have the APR chip. So, I guess it can't be flashed. Fortunately, they still don't know about the chip and I was able to take it home and remove it while they are ordering me a new computer
I'm glad they didn't find out I'm chipped because then they would probably try to pull some crap like it's the chips fault. When I know its their F'D up computer that's causing the trouble. My question is, how will the Apr chip affect the new computer?
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Re: Dealer Reflashing Information and How/What Chips are Affected! (lostgti)

Quote, originally posted by lostgti »
My question is, how will the Apr chip affect the new computer?

If the current code is based on the old code it may still have misfires.
 
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