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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When it rains, it pours...

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‘Dependable’ and ‘cost saving’ are two adjectives commonly associated with diesel engines. In recent years, diesel-burning off-road vehicles have also become a fashionable purchase item for city dwellers around the world. For asthmatics and people with allergies this is a regrettable trend. Particles in diesel exhaust can both worsen and trigger allergic reactions, say the Norwegians behind a government-backed study.
Martinus Løvik of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health’s environmental immunology division led a project to study the effects of diesel engines on people prone to these major ailments. He said the increasing numbers of diesel vehicles on the roads – and their continued use in shipping and rail (especially in Norway) – pose a serious health risk.
His team investigated the prevalence and recurrence of allergies in mice exposed to different airborne particles. The research was financed by the Research Council of Norway, which is a centre of expertise in epidemiology, infectious disease control, environmental medicine, forensic toxicology and research on drug abuse.
100 times more
Diesel exhaust contains about 100 times more carbon particles than petrol. The core of the particle is, in turn, surrounded by many different chemicals. This chemical cocktail not only seems to exacerbate the symptoms of those already prone to allergies but also appears to trigger latent allergic reactions, causing human blood cells to create more antibodies. In mice, the particle core itself appears to play a role, inducing increased allergic immune response.
These results are supported by US studies which found that people who were previously not allergic can develop reactions to diesel if they are ‘nasally’ exposed to the exhaust particles together with mugwort pollen. Diesel particles are minute – less than one-thousandth of a millimetre across – and remain airborne for a long time. This fineness also means that up to 30% of the mass we inhale can be deposited into the lungs.
Even flying dust from speeding tyres – in Norway’s case, spiked winter treads add to this – is less of a potential irritant to the lungs than diesel particles, Løvik explain. “We have to consider pollution from diesel exhaust to be a greater risk than pavement dust, which we have focused… on in Norway over the past years,” he said, adding that recent studies also suggest fine particles can also affect acute heart disease.
The team is also involved in a Europe-wide assessment of ‘Respiratory allergy and inflammation due to ambient particles’ (RAIAP), a project which aims to summarise the scientific knowledge on the role of ambient particles on respiratory allergies and the implications of this for regulators, the general public and industry.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/rese....html
**Please don't take this too seriously. It was just a tongue and cheek poke at Rogue
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (Mazda 3s)

Here is my little half-assed response to your T&C post:
Allergies?? Hahaha. Who cares! LOL.
Wow. Every day some new group of "scientists" come up with complaints about how diesel is bad. I could find a bunch of "studies" yammering about the dangers of diesel particulates. Then I could find you a bunch more studies demonstrating that diesel exhuast is quite harmless. And so what? So far, none of this is at all conclusive.
Oh really now, this is quite funny. So, diesel PM is surrounded by chemicals? Big deal - gasser exhaust is permeated with them. Gasser PM is smaller than diesel PM - so small, we cant really measure their counts accurately. They are likely much more carcinogenically potent than diesel PM as well, simply because of the source fuel and engine combustion characteristics.

100times more particles? Not at full load, where the numbers are about the same. Also, the engines that form the basis for the study are undoubtely outdated technology, where new tech is constantly improving emissions peroformance. Major example - this study doesnt appear to consider diesel vehicles with PM filters installed, a huge omission.
And digging up some obscure study from Norway? I couldnt even find the original report on their site. Post it if you can.


Modified by RogueTDI at 9:09 PM 5-17-2004
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (RogueTDI)

Quote, originally posted by RogueTDI »
And digging up some obscure study from Norway? I couldnt even find the original report on their site. Post it if you can.

Did you not even read the disclaimer I posted at the end of my post saying not to take the post that seriously? It was merely a jab at you for digging up everything dirty on hybrids.
Sheesh, don't take yourself so seriously...I surely don't
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (RogueTDI)

Quote, originally posted by RogueTDI »
... Then I could find you a bunch more studies demonstrating that diesel exhuast is quite harmless. ...


Okay, do it.
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (Mazda 3s)

Quote, originally posted by Mazda 3s »

Did you not even read the disclaimer I posted at the end of my post saying not to take the post that seriously? It was merely a jab at you for digging up everything dirty on hybrids.
Sheesh, don't take yourself so seriously...I surely don't

OH LORD!!! Delivers us the ultmate Diesel Engine to teach all these Hybrids and Electrics what the future of engines really are!!!
(Or at leat what RogueTDI is thinking every single damn day!)
Its getting tiresome. To the point of obsession.
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (YF19EX)

Quote, originally posted by YF19EX »

OH LORD!!! Delivers us the ultmate Diesel Engine to teach all these Hybrids and Electrics what the future of engines really are!!!
(Or at leat what RogueTDI is thinking every single damn day!)
Its getting tiresome. To the point of obsession.

Nobody is forcing you to reply.
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (RogueTDI)

Quote, originally posted by RogueTDI »
Here is my little half-assed response to your T&C post:
Allergies?? Hahaha. Who cares! LOL.
Then I could find you a bunch more studies demonstrating that diesel exhuast is quite harmless. And so what? So far, none of this is at all conclusive.

So alot...I was in Europe where over 40% of vehicles sold are diesels...I was choking to death in certain parts of the city. Diesel has heavy and large particulates that are immediate irritants to the respiratory system. Even my cousin's very clean burning MB diesel stunk up the surroundings at idle with very pungent and irritating exhaust...
Harmless my ass...



Modified by Integrale at 11:01 PM 5-17-2004
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (RogueTDI)

Quote, originally posted by RogueTDI »

Nobody is forcing you to reply.

Yes, nobody is. But when you continue to preach day in and day out. Someone is going to say something. Whether you like it or not. And we will continue to make fun of you as long as it keeps going. Amen.



Modified by YF19EX at 11:04 PM 5-17-2004
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (YF19EX)

I read that diesel makes your weenee shrink.
When it rains it only tinkles if you drive diesel... lol.
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (Integrale)

Quote, originally posted by Integrale »

So alot...I was in Europe where over 40% of vehicles sold are diesels...I was choking to death in certain parts of the city. Diesel has heavy and large particulates that are immediate irritants to the respiratory system. Even my cousin's very clean burning MB diesel stunk up the surroundings at idle with very pungent and irritating exhaust...
Harmless my ass...
Modified by Integrale at 11:01 PM 5-17-2004

Heh. Not that I take your personal sensitivites to be representative of anything, but if we are talking start-up conditions, a diesel has a gasser beat hands down. Oh sure, it may stink a little, but so does a gasser. Even new gassers give off much higher emissions at start up, and during cold-engine driving, highly noticable with not only your olfactory sense, but by the gag reflex of your entire respiratory tract.
Not saying diesel exhaust might potentially be harmful. Just silly to act as if gassers didnt also emit potentially harmful particulates.
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (YF19EX)

Quote, originally posted by YF19EX »

Yes, nobody is. But when you continue to preach day in and day out. Someone is going to say something. Whether you like it or not. And we will continue to make fun of you as long as it keeps going. Amen.


Modified by YF19EX at 11:04 PM 5-17-2004

Well, at least for another year or two. After that, my cohorts and I will be the ones laughing. And yeah, I definitely spend to much time preaching to the brainless.
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (RogueTDI)

Quote, originally posted by RogueTDI »

Heh. Not that I take your personal sensitivites to be representative of anything, but if we are talking start-up conditions, a diesel has a gasser beat hands down. Oh sure, it may stink a little, but so does a gasser. Even new gassers give off much higher emissions at start up, and during cold-engine driving, highly noticable with not only your olfactory sense, but by the gag reflex of your entire respiratory tract.
Not saying diesel exhaust might potentially be harmful. Just silly to act as if gassers didnt also emit potentially harmful particulates.

Personal sensitivities...lol...maybe you're just insensitive to gross pollutants. Start up conditions? I'm talking driving by and idling at stops...they stink and irritate the passengers and pedestrians like only an old regular fuel car running poorly can.
No one said properly running regular petrol cars don't pollute...but they certainly are not as irritating to the respiratory system as properly running, top of the line diesels are...you can count on that 100%.
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (Integrale)

Quote, originally posted by Integrale »

Personal sensitivities...lol...maybe you're just insensitive to gross pollutants. Start up conditions? I'm talking driving by and idling at stops...they stink and irritate the passengers and pedestrians like only an old regular fuel car running poorly can.
No one said properly running regular petrol cars don't pollute...but they certainly are not as irritating to the respiratory system as properly running, top of the line diesels are...you can count on that 100%.

Yeah. You told me about this before. You were in London, where many taxis apparently use diesel. It bothered you.
I have been in large German cities where there are many diesel cars also. My guess is the diesel taxis that bothered you were quite old or worn out, or the fuel quality not quite the same. The places I was at with lots of diesels in the roads didnt cause me a problem at all. You could hardly smell a diesel smell, if at all, let alone did it bother me. And its not that Im used to it or anything - I can recognize even a faint diesel smell.
But "top of the line diesels"? They dont irritate human senses at all, even in large numbers. Try walking around downtown Berlin in heavy traffic. Lots of diesels there. Lots in many other German cities. The air was fine, with no smells from diesels. Same with Austria. Many more diesels there, but even in Vienna, vehicle diesel exhuast was not a problem at all for me anywhere in the city.
Like I said, you mentioned this before, and I couldnt begin imagine what you are talking about. Modern diesels burn extremely cleanly, with little odor if at all, virtually zero smoke, and no other noticable bothersome emissions.
Just today on the roads around my home city in So Cal, I was behind numerous gas cars, some old that were not necessarily out of tune, some relatively new that were presumably out of tune. I had to turn on my recirc they made me choke so bad. So this complaint can go either way. Nice thing about diesels is, they dont really need tune-ups like gassers - they dont tend to go out of tune like gassers (even modern ones). Proper timing, good fuel, and regular maintenance (fluids and filters) and diesels will run just about clean as new for well over 100kmi, 200kmi, 300kmi and more.



Modified by RogueTDI at 12:54 AM 5-18-2004
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (RogueTDI)

I have athsma and allergies and I drive an old stinky diesel from before the common-rail era. It has yet to trigger an athsma attack or an allergic reaction and I've driven it 13,000 miles in about 18 months (I have two other cars).
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (Taimar2)

If diesel exhaust was so bad, then how come truck drivers and diesel mechanics aren't dropping like flies?
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (Mazda 3s)

This isn't new information.
I work in R&D for a company that makes products used in the treatment of asthma, COPD, etc. Specifically products for the delivery of pharmaceutical aerosols. I'm not going to take the time to search out relevant papers for the purpose of an internet discussion forum but this information has been around for a long time.
The larger particle size of diesel particles is the problem as they are within the respirable range so they deposit in the lungs. The smaller particles present in gasoline exhaust are too small to deposit in the lungs and are expelled during exhalation.
Up to 99% of diesel particulates within the respirable range can, however, be filtered with particulate traps:
http://www.dieselnet.com/papers/9812mayer.html
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (PackRat)

I worked at a golf course on a big riding mower that was diesel. The mufflier cracked and then i was breathing in fumes.
Made me feel ill and gave me heartburn, meh, not much more then that
 

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nothing new....studies have been conduct here and published that proved the same point.
I have asthma....I have a diesel....doesn't bother me....I'm allergic to exercise though
The reduction of PM's and carcinogenic compounds through biodiesel makes it much more desirable....one of the reasons for the biodiesel push.
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (2 F1 Fans)

Quote, originally posted by 2 F1 Fans »
This isn't new information.
I work in R&D for a company that makes products used in the treatment of asthma, COPD, etc. Specifically products for the delivery of pharmaceutical aerosols. I'm not going to take the time to search out relevant papers for the purpose of an internet discussion forum but this information has been around for a long time.
The larger particle size of diesel particles is the problem as they are within the respirable range so they deposit in the lungs. The smaller particles present in gasoline exhaust are too small to deposit in the lungs and are expelled during exhalation.
Up to 99% of diesel particulates within the respirable range can, however, be filtered with particulate traps:
http://www.dieselnet.com/papers/9812mayer.html


"The larger particle size of diesel particles is the problem as they are within the respirable range so they deposit in the lungs. The smaller particles present in gasoline exhaust are too small to deposit in the lungs and are expelled during exhalation."
Well, I certainly wouldnt say that gasser PM(particulate matter) is ALL expelled during exhalation.There is not some size below which PM does NOT deposit at all in the lungs. As a general rule, the smaller the PM, the deeper it can get into the lungs. If it gets small enough, it can practically make it into the blood stream. The differences in nominal size are perhaps one order of magnitude or so. In general, larger particles settle easier than smaller particles, and so this accounts for the notion you describe. But both PM types are very small, and the settling difference is not very substantial. Both types will remain largely suspended in the inhaled air, then exhaled again. Both types will deposit to the extent of contact made with the lungs.
There has been lots of talk in Europe about filtering gasoline tailpipe emissions for PM.


Modified by RogueTDI at 12:11 PM 5-18-2004
 

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Re: Diesel can trigger allergy attack, scientists say (RogueTDI)

Quote, originally posted by RogueTDI »
Here is my little half-assed response to your T&C post:
Allergies?? Hahaha. Who cares! LOL.


Geez, you are a rogue, aren't you..?

Diesel, and TDIs in particular, have become religious for some folks. That's all good and fine, but it's hard to win converts nailing sandals onto the feet of the heretics.
 
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