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Upgrading a clutch is not the saga many are making it out to be. It's not terribly expensive. Especially considering a.) The car itself is a bit less expensive. B.) DSG tunes cost money too. C.) DSG service intervals. I'm not saying the DSG is a bad choice. It's an excellent transmission. But upgrading a clutch just isn't that big of a deal, and there are so many aftermarket ones available, to meet so many different needs and driving styles and price points. I've done it on other modded cars, and when the time comes, will do it here too. Should vw put a better clutch in from the factory? From an enthusiast standpoint, probably. But on that subject, why don't they also sell the DSGs without the need for a DSG tune? Of course from the factory it's only going to need to hold factory power. But the one they chose is cheaper, so that's an accounting choice, and a valid one. Most people won't mod, so I get it, even if I don't like it. Sure the Focus ST came with a better stock clutch. But it's also discontinued. There was no financial case for it anymore, so now it's gone in the US. The GTI and R have some of the highest manual take rates around, next to the WRX (including the manual only STI). That says that there are plenty of people getting enjoyment from a row-your-own VWs. So much that it's back for another generation of GTis and Rs for 2020 and on the GLI for 2019+.

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I have a manual Sportwagen, my brother has a DSG R. He was telling me a few days ago that sometimes he does wish he had bought a manual R instead, and that the DSG is good, but not amazing as most reviewers said.

FWIW the manual does kind of suck straight out of the factory, but it costs a couple hundred $ and a few hours to make it feel great. DieselGeek Sigma 6, Superpin, clutch delay valve delete (free) and clutch spring return delete (also free) help immensely. The cost to replace a clutch is also a moot point since you'll pay extra for the DSG + TCU tune + DSG services over the long haul.

I would get the manual. In the future you won't have a choice anyways, so might as well enjoy it while you can.
 

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Upgrading a clutch is not the saga many are making it out to be. It's not terribly expensive. Especially considering a.) The car itself is a bit less expensive. B.) DSG tunes cost money too. C.) DSG service intervals. I'm not saying the DSG is a bad choice. It's an excellent transmission. But upgrading a clutch just isn't that big of a deal, and there are so many aftermarket ones available, to meet so many different needs and driving styles and price points. I've done it on other modded cars, and when the time comes, will do it here too. Should vw put a better clutch in from the factory? From an enthusiast standpoint, probably. But on that subject, why don't they also sell the DSGs without the need for a DSG tune? Of course from the factory it's only going to need to hold factory power. But the one they chose is cheaper, so that's an accounting choice, and a valid one. Most people won't mod, so I get it, even if I don't like it. Sure the Focus ST came with a better stock clutch. But it's also discontinued. There was no financial case for it anymore, so now it's gone in the US. The GTI and R have some of the highest manual take rates around, next to the WRX (including the manual only STI). That says that there are plenty of people getting enjoyment from a row-your-own VWs. So much that it's back for another generation of GTis and Rs for 2020 and on the GLI for 2019+.

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This is the second time in this thread I've seen someone mention a clutch replacement is easy and not that expensive.

While the job is not that hard it goes beyond the scope of most DIYers, especially if the car is a daily. Additionally, most aftermarket kits are single mass flywheels,. They work, but they chatter and make a bunch of noise at idle a lot of people don't want.

So, if someone wants an OEM level NVH repair, with more strength, and is paying someone else to do it, it's a $2500-3000 job.
 

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This is the second time in this thread I've seen someone mention a clutch replacement is easy and not that expensive.

While the job is not that hard it goes beyond the scope of most DIYers, especially if the car is a daily. Additionally, most aftermarket kits are single mass flywheels,. They work, but they chatter and make a bunch of noise at idle a lot of people don't want.

So, if someone wants an OEM level NVH repair, with more strength, and is paying someone else to do it, it's a $2500-3000 job.
I have to say I do agree with you. The dual mass is very refined, and the single mass options are noisy. That's why I said that it can cost as much as you want it to, and that there are many aftermarket options. It's actually why I'm thinking about doing my clutch now, before it starts slipping, so I can keep my Dual Mass flywheel, and go with something like this: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-spec-clutches-parts/stage-2-clutch-kit/sv502-2~spc/
Or this
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-sachs-p...rmance-clutch-kit-without-flywheel/4999502kt/

It's reasonably priced, and works with the DMF. Otherwise, it's single mass at the same price point, or much more to replace the dual mass flywheel. I will not do the install myself, but it looks like labor will be about $1000. It's either that one or the ECS stage 2, which I know is noisy, but I can deal with it. I had a ceramic clutch on my first STI... I figure either way, I'll be out the door at around $2k, which isn't awful. I guess expensive is relative though. So even $2500 isn't that bad to me, including labor, considering the car is cheaper to start with, and you still have to get a DSG tune to mod that transmission, so in the end, it's only about $1000 more, to keep my 3 pedals.


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FWIW the manual does kind of suck straight out of the factory, but it costs a couple hundred $ and a few hours to make it feel great. DieselGeek Sigma 6, Superpin, clutch delay valve delete (free) and clutch spring return delete (also free) help immensely.
This is the first I'd heard of the clutch return spring delete. I just did this now. Hopefully I like it. If not, I guess I can put it back. I already did the delay valve delete last week; that was a huge improvement.
Edit: Drove to work today with the clutch spring delete (30 mile commute). It's nice. Especially taking off at lights and when I got out of town to the backroads. "Out of the box", the manual driving experience is catered towards casual drivers, which makes sense, given there broad appeal. But with 2 free mods (clutch delay valve removal and spring delete) and one fairly inexpensive one (adjustable pedal stop), it becomes a very good experience for the enthusiast.

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This is the second time in this thread I've seen someone mention a clutch replacement is easy and not that expensive.

While the job is not that hard it goes beyond the scope of most DIYers, especially if the car is a daily. Additionally, most aftermarket kits are single mass flywheels,. They work, but they chatter and make a bunch of noise at idle a lot of people don't want.

So, if someone wants an OEM level NVH repair, with more strength, and is paying someone else to do it, it's a $2500-3000 job.
I just set up an appointment at my local shop on a clutch install. Labor will be $650. That's not bad at all. Add that to whatever clutch you choose, but they start at around $700… and can go up to much higher prices, of course. So the final installed price, labor included, starts at $1350, for a single mass flywheel option, including flywheel. To keep dual mass, you start at about 1450, including labor, if your stock flywheel is still good, and can be re-used. Otherwise, add in the cost of a new dmf if you want to keep it. Even the most expensive option (other than a $3200 carbon twin disc set up), is only $1782 for the clutch kit, so would be $2432 installed. A new clutch, fully installed, will run between $1350 and $2432, depending on which clutch you run. Because there's no DSG tune needed, the manual car itself is cheaper, and no DSG service requirement on the manual, I still feel like it costs about the same as a DSG, so people should just choose the transmission they prefer. I personally love rowing my own gears in all situations (I'm a glutton for punishment I guess, so including in traffic), and using three pedals. When this is no longer an option, I'll get an electric car.
I'm going to get mine done now. I'm probably on borrowed time anyway, and would rather the clutch not go out at an inopportune time, even though mine is still fine. I just set up an appointment. Luckily, car maintenance shops are still open during coronavirus.

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I just set up an appointment at my local shop on a clutch install. Labor will be $650. That's not bad at all. Add that to whatever clutch you choose, but they start at around $700… and can go up to much higher prices, of course. So the final installed price, labor included, starts at $1350, for a single mass flywheel option, including flywheel. To keep dual mass, you start at about 1450, including labor, if your stock flywheel is still good, and can be re-used. Otherwise, add in the cost of a new dmf if you want to keep it. Even the most expensive option (other than a $3200 carbon twin disc set up), is only $1782 for the clutch kit, so would be $2432 installed. A new clutch, fully installed, will run between $1350 and $2432, depending on which clutch you run. Because there's no DSG tune needed, the manual car itself is cheaper, and no DSG service requirement on the manual, I still feel like it costs about the same as a DSG, so people should just choose the transmission they prefer. I personally love rowing my own gears in all situations (I'm a glutton for punishment I guess, so including in traffic), and using three pedals. When this is no longer an option, I'll get an electric car.
I'm going to get mine done now. I'm probably on borrowed time anyway, and would rather the clutch not go out at an inopportune time, even though mine is still fine. I just set up an appointment. Luckily, car maintenance shops are still open during coronavirus.

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I'm not sure the labor rates in your area, but $650 is pretty cheap. Around here it would be more like $1000 at an independent. Then add in all the peripherals like shop supplies, new subframe bolts, etc etc.

Reusing the flywheel is a risky measure at best. You cannot properly resurface a dual mass flywheel, some people try to scuff them up with a pad on a grinder, but this is backyard type stuff and could mean you're taking it all apart again in a few months.

As I said, there are cheaper ways to do it if you don't mind some NVH. If you want a factory type repair with more holding power, it's not a cheap proposition. This is not a dig at 6 speeds (I owned one for almost eight years), it just is what it is.
 

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I've no experience with the 6MT in later Golfs/GTIs, but I have a 2017 1.8TSI Golf 5MT and it's the most un-fun stick I've ever owned. Wide ratios and tall gearing at least keep revs low on the highway for fuel economy and low noise, but getting there is just boring. The clutch is light but really lacks the feel it needs for a sense of driver engagement. In hindsight, I should have spent more money and just gotten an automatic top-trim Golf SEL. At least I'd have the nicer seats and more things to play with while sitting in rush hour traffic.
 

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This is the first I'd heard of the clutch return spring delete. I just did this now. Hopefully I like it. If not, I guess I can put it back. I already did the delay valve delete last week; that was a huge improvement.
Edit: Drove to work today with the clutch spring delete (30 mile commute). It's nice. Especially taking off at lights and when I got out of town to the backroads. "Out of the box", the manual driving experience is catered towards casual drivers, which makes sense, given there broad appeal. But with 2 free mods (clutch delay valve removal and spring delete) and one fairly inexpensive one (adjustable pedal stop), it becomes a very good experience for the enthusiast.

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I forgot I did the clutch pedal stop mod as well, cost about $3 for 4 stops using furniture slider feet.

Considering I've seen quotes of $500+ for DSG service (every 40k, or even earlier if you are modified), I don't see why people are complaining so much about the cost of a clutch change. The DSG costs $1k more, TCU tune costs at least $700, and DSG service every 20-40k will end up costing considerably more in the long run, and that's assuming your DSG clutches don't wear out (which isn't unheard of) or have some other gearbox related issue. Spend $2500, throw a good clutch into the manual and you're set. Transmission service is as easy as an oil change.
 

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I forgot I did the clutch pedal stop mod as well, cost about $3 for 4 stops using furniture slider feet.

Considering I've seen quotes of $500+ for DSG service (every 40k, or even earlier if you are modified), I don't see why people are complaining so much about the cost of a clutch change. The DSG costs $1k more, TCU tune costs at least $700, and DSG service every 20-40k will end up costing considerably more in the long run, and that's assuming your DSG clutches don't wear out (which isn't unheard of) or have some other gearbox related issue. Spend $2500, throw a good clutch into the manual and you're set. Transmission service is as easy as an oil change.
For just a stage one tune, you don't really need a TCU tune. You can get it if you want, sure.

DSG service is just like doing an oil change for the engine. The fluid is a little more expensive and you need VCDS or OBD11 to check the trans temperature to set the level correctly. Some people just add the amount they took out but it's not the proper way. If you work on these cars at all you should have OBD11 or something anyway. The service interval on the latest gen DSG box (DQ381) is now 80k. So even if you want to do it every 50k for safety for most people that's about five years.

At the end of the day worrying about $1000 difference either way between transmission costs over the course of your vehicle ownership (assuming 5+ years) is not nearly enough to be concerned with.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Wow thanks everyone for all the responses

Anyways ended up getting a left over 19

the misses won't to happy , but she seemingly gotten over it already lol .

So yes manual was the choice .


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the correct choice


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Good job!

The MK7.5 GTI with manual certainly seems to be the TCL hot choice.
 

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I have a 2019 GLI, 7-speed DSG - so the same powertrain as the GTI. First DSG car, and wanted a DSG to be more wife friendly. It is good. I have the APR tune on my DSG (car is APR stage 2 ECU, DSG tune and then intake/exhaust/fmic upgrades).

Here is my thoughts:
1. Holy crap it shifts fast. I have fancy paddles i installed and it is pretty fun to play. Not super fast to downshift but its still fast. At WOT it is lighting quick. Partial shifts aren't lighting fast, but still good.
2. I like how in sport mode it sequentially downshifts as you come to a stop, but in drive (not-sport) feel close to a torque converted
3. In sport mode stock, it shifts at 2500 (average throttle input). APR tune, sport mode, shifts at 3000. Something to consider. Stick it was, IIRC, 2000 rpm shifts drive, 2500 sport.
4. I got it because its far faster, it can handle the abuse of tunes, and it has an extra gear that means it spins something like 2000 rpm at 75. It also now specs 80k fluid changes, not the old 40k (IIRC).
5. There are no more DSG farts, that's no longer a thing. With a TBE (I have an APR DP and a AWE CB) there is a nice crisp sound on shifts.

Not sure what the tune did to the DSG - i can't say it felt very different, but oh well. The weak manual clutch (my 2013 GTI slipped the day i went stage 2) coupled with the not-very-good VW manual and clutch feel meant I was ready to move past a manual in this vehicle, and save the manual for a future toy (thinking a NC3 Miata or a post 17' BRZ)
 

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Discussion Starter #57
GTI and a 4Runner? I like the cut of your jib.
Well we bought the 4 runner about a year ago , I've always had a Toyota mini truck obsession. I've owned several . My wife needed a new SUV about 6 months ago , because I got sick of dropping the sub frame on her Acadia and putting steering racks and ps pumps on it . Then the high pressure fuel pump went out . That was it. I told her if she wanted a new SUV, you got free reign anything in the Toyota lot . I ain't working on American junk anymore ....

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Discussion Starter #60
I have a 2019 GLI, 7-speed DSG - so the same powertrain as the GTI. First DSG car, and wanted a DSG to be more wife friendly. It is good. I have the APR tune on my DSG (car is APR stage 2 ECU, DSG tune and then intake/exhaust/fmic upgrades).

Here is my thoughts:
1. Holy crap it shifts fast. I have fancy paddles i installed and it is pretty fun to play. Not super fast to downshift but its still fast. At WOT it is lighting quick. Partial shifts aren't lighting fast, but still good.
2. I like how in sport mode it sequentially downshifts as you come to a stop, but in drive (not-sport) feel close to a torque converted
3. In sport mode stock, it shifts at 2500 (average throttle input). APR tune, sport mode, shifts at 3000. Something to consider. Stick it was, IIRC, 2000 rpm shifts drive, 2500 sport.
4. I got it because its far faster, it can handle the abuse of tunes, and it has an extra gear that means it spins something like 2000 rpm at 75. It also now specs 80k fluid changes, not the old 40k (IIRC).
5. There are no more DSG farts, that's no longer a thing. With a TBE (I have an APR DP and a AWE CB) there is a nice crisp sound on shifts.

Not sure what the tune did to the DSG - i can't say it felt very different, but oh well. The weak manual clutch (my 2013 GTI slipped the day i went stage 2) coupled with the not-very-good VW manual and clutch feel meant I was ready to move past a manual in this vehicle, and save the manual for a future toy (thinking a NC3 Miata or a post 17' BRZ)
I did like the dsg , I will not lie about that . But for me the manual was the choice . But I will admit the DSG has it's own personality that I did like in ways I don't like the manual .

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