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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (jefnes3 please comment)

"It's like tuning with meth injection-- only a whole lot better in terms of consistency and cylinder-to-cylinder distribution."
-Shiv at Vishnu, a very respected evo tuner
"Think of e85 behaving just like (or a bit better) 100oct race gas. With the only exception that more fuel is needed to support the same power output. So the only hardware consideration has to do with the fuel system. Things like turbos, cams, exhaust etc,. should still be addressed in the same manner."
-Shiv
LINK:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/s...pp=15
I read the evolutionm.net forums quite avidly, and a very interesting post was created by Vishnu Performance in CA. They have created a flex fuel evo for the LA autoshow and are getting better numbers than when they have used race gas. E85 is actually 105 octane. E85, also, is reasonably available and < $2.25 per gallon. Which begs the question, who's gonna try this on a VRT? What fuel system components need to be upgraded? From what I read all you need is a fuel specific tune and larger injectors. I think that C2motorsports should offer an E85 tune. I've already got a Stage II C2 fuel setup and an inline fuel pump, so I'm equipped to jump on this, I think.

Modified by cardshockey31 at 1:17 PM 11-28-2006


Modified by cardshockey31 at 1:25 PM 11-28-2006
 

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Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (Jefnes3)

it would be perfect for a turbo'd car b/c it has an actual octane rating of around 105 and it actually burns cooler http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (Jefnes3)

There's quite a bit of it in the midwest and lots in Columbus, If I provided the fuel would a custom tune be a possibility? I think that there may be a demand for this...It's like being able to run 110 octane all the time for the price of premium 93-94 or less.


Modified by cardshockey31 at 3:11 PM 11-28-2006
 

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Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (cardshockey31)

re: the ~cost of running E85.
your gas mileage will drop by ~20% running E85 vs E10 (typical pump gas now).
so, don't get to excited about more power for less money.
-Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (igotaprestent4u)

His blown engine had nothing to do with E85. I just read the whole thread he was simply spinning the stock head too fast and dropped a valve. As long as your fuel system has room to add extra fuel, E85 burns cooler and is less prone to detonation. The downside of this setup is reduced gas mileage in a range of 10-30%. With the prices of unleaded or even leaded race fuel being what they are, it is possible that E85 is a much cheaper option for people who want to run big boost on the streets all the time. If the mechanical components of your engine can't handle a certain boost pressure on 110 octane then it won't handle it on E85. The only component of your car that needs to be changed is to have larger injectors and possibly a fuel pump.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (cardshockey31)

Also, to Jeff, a some people have suggested running a 30% or even 50% ethanol setup to improve gas mileage over E85, while still retaining some of the anti-detonation benefits. I believe that E30 is similar to 96 octane fuel...
 

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Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (cardshockey31)

E85 will never detonate .
Pistons,block or rods will go first
I ran some sick 30psi + 30degree pre ignition without getting knock retard .
Jeff can fix a E85 file in 2 minutes or just put ~40% bigger injectors in and use any turbo file.
The phat boys went from 650ish hp in their audi to 900hp+ on CSP vs E85
I use 630cc injectors 3bar FPR and 044 inline


Modified by foffa2002 at 11:03 AM 11-29-2006
 

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Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (cardshockey31)

Quote, originally posted by cardshockey31 »
His blown engine had nothing to do with E85.

explain to me then how metal flowed up the the threads of the plug. thats what he needed a breaker bar to get them off.
go fill your tank up with e85 and tune it for 12.5a/f. lets see how long it lasts
 

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um, the end of the plug got hammered by a hunk of valve, of course it doesn't want to come out easily.

The ecu might display 12.5 : 1 a/f, but truely it is NOT 12.5 :1 a/f. The ecu reads lambda, which works the same for ALL fuels, then you multiply that by 14.7:1 for gasoline, getting 12.5:1. Multiply it by the correct factor for E85, and you would find the true a/f ratio.
Peter was FAR from cautious. He beat the piss out of that cylinder head, never (afaik) made any attempt to dyno tune the car, then one day randomly filled it up with E85 and added 20 degrees of timing with lemmiwinks. If you play like that, you will pay the price, its just a matter of time. Everything in this game is about slow, carefully thought through steps. As soon as you stop thinking, and just start doing, you get yourself into trouble.
I think you guys forget he was running what, 26psi? from a 35r on regular pump gas before the e85! Don't you think those egt's (no timing) may have heat cycled those exhaust valves a few times?
If you don't have any idea what the hell you are talking about, refrain from spreading misinformation.



Modified by 801pete at 7:48 AM 11-29-2006
 

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Re: (801pete)

I'm thinking of running e85 when I go vrT. It's everywhere here in MN. Which C2 software should I get... stage 1 or 2? How much boost should I intend on running for e85. I assume that the stage 1 software with 36lb injectors at around 10psi without an intercooler and 2.5 turbo back is not enough. Am I correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: (VWeezly)

igotapresent... why would i tune it for 12.5? Clearly you didn't understand the reason for needing larger injectors. We have already discussed that the stoic. ratio of E85 as compared to gasoline is different. In order to compensate for this more fuel is required, i think that the you need to tune for a/f's around 9.
 

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Re: (cardshockey31)

cardshockey31

its easier to just tune for 12.5ish if you have a wide band with petrol software .
E85 wide band software requires that you bring your lap top and thats not a thing you want to do all day every day.
and its easier if you have "chip switch " or adj fpr to just have "normal" calculation on lambda vs afr from a drivers point of view.

you are gonna love E85 when you start using it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 

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Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (Jefnes3)

Quote, originally posted by Jefnes3 »
re: the ~cost of running E85.
your gas mileage will drop by ~20% running E85 vs E10 (typical pump gas now).
so, don't get to excited about more power for less money.
-Jeff

I have a 88 chevy van and have found something interesting.The E85v will run much better on leaner mixtures than gasoline.I am also running more timing and its lovin it.I am getting about the same miledge as gasoline at this point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (slappynuts)

Does anyone know if the proper fueling adjustments to run E85 can be made with vagcom, lemmiwinks, and a wideband? If so what are some suggestions to maintain a margin of saftey when getting started. Before anyone says I'm an idiot, I highly doubt that lemmiwinks would be the appropriate tool for this project, but I am curious as to whether it is possible. Do you have any further advice foffa, you seem to be the only one with experience on the subject matter with a VR type engine.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1700349
Is this relevant?

Modified by cardshockey31 at 3:59 PM 11-29-2006


Modified by cardshockey31 at 4:03 PM 11-29-2006
 

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Re: (cardshockey31)

Quote, originally posted by cardshockey31 »
Thanks for the advice, I wasn't actually planning on tuning on a/f's I was just trying to make igotapresent realize that 12.5 lambda on E85 does not equal 12.5 lamda on gasoline in terms of a/f ratios.

exactly, i never said they were the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: (igotaprestent4u)

Then how would tuning for the proper stoic. ratio on E85 be any different than gas? E85 burns colder and is more knock resistant than gas; your comments make no sense. I'm not saying that I know more than you when it comes to VW's but in this case I think your are seriously misinformed. Even in the thread that you pointed out no one ever said the blown engine was because of E85, it was simply the result of an engine being pushed too hard with improper tuning and parts. If your going to comment, provide relevant information that you have first hand knowledge of. If you have information that we don't about this blown engine please provide it. I started this thread to produce progress in the VW community. Look at all the success that the evom community had with the meth injection, now they are all jumping on the E85 bandwagon. I'm pointing out a new trend and stating facts, you are trying to blame a new fuel for one member's questionable decision to push his engine too hard. Again, I respect you and your knowledge, but your just not being sensible. If there is something wrong with tuning for the proper stoic. ratio on E85, that we don't know please enlighten us...


Modified by cardshockey31 at 8:48 PM 11-29-2006
 
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