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E85: Feasibility with VRT (jefnes3 please comment)

2K views 26 replies 11 participants last post by  cardshockey31 
#1 ·
E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (jefnes3 please comment)

"It's like tuning with meth injection-- only a whole lot better in terms of consistency and cylinder-to-cylinder distribution."
-Shiv at Vishnu, a very respected evo tuner
"Think of e85 behaving just like (or a bit better) 100oct race gas. With the only exception that more fuel is needed to support the same power output. So the only hardware consideration has to do with the fuel system. Things like turbos, cams, exhaust etc,. should still be addressed in the same manner."
-Shiv
LINK:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/s...pp=15
I read the evolutionm.net forums quite avidly, and a very interesting post was created by Vishnu Performance in CA. They have created a flex fuel evo for the LA autoshow and are getting better numbers than when they have used race gas. E85 is actually 105 octane. E85, also, is reasonably available and < $2.25 per gallon. Which begs the question, who's gonna try this on a VRT? What fuel system components need to be upgraded? From what I read all you need is a fuel specific tune and larger injectors. I think that C2motorsports should offer an E85 tune. I've already got a Stage II C2 fuel setup and an inline fuel pump, so I'm equipped to jump on this, I think.

Modified by cardshockey31 at 1:17 PM 11-28-2006


Modified by cardshockey31 at 1:25 PM 11-28-2006
 
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#4 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (Jefnes3)

There's quite a bit of it in the midwest and lots in Columbus, If I provided the fuel would a custom tune be a possibility? I think that there may be a demand for this...It's like being able to run 110 octane all the time for the price of premium 93-94 or less.


Modified by cardshockey31 at 3:11 PM 11-28-2006
 
#7 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (igotaprestent4u)

His blown engine had nothing to do with E85. I just read the whole thread he was simply spinning the stock head too fast and dropped a valve. As long as your fuel system has room to add extra fuel, E85 burns cooler and is less prone to detonation. The downside of this setup is reduced gas mileage in a range of 10-30%. With the prices of unleaded or even leaded race fuel being what they are, it is possible that E85 is a much cheaper option for people who want to run big boost on the streets all the time. If the mechanical components of your engine can't handle a certain boost pressure on 110 octane then it won't handle it on E85. The only component of your car that needs to be changed is to have larger injectors and possibly a fuel pump.
 
#8 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (cardshockey31)

Also, to Jeff, a some people have suggested running a 30% or even 50% ethanol setup to improve gas mileage over E85, while still retaining some of the anti-detonation benefits. I believe that E30 is similar to 96 octane fuel...
 
#9 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (cardshockey31)

E85 will never detonate .
Pistons,block or rods will go first
I ran some sick 30psi + 30degree pre ignition without getting knock retard .
Jeff can fix a E85 file in 2 minutes or just put ~40% bigger injectors in and use any turbo file.
The phat boys went from 650ish hp in their audi to 900hp+ on CSP vs E85
I use 630cc injectors 3bar FPR and 044 inline


Modified by foffa2002 at 11:03 AM 11-29-2006
 
#10 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (cardshockey31)

Quote, originally posted by cardshockey31 »
His blown engine had nothing to do with E85.

explain to me then how metal flowed up the the threads of the plug. thats what he needed a breaker bar to get them off.
go fill your tank up with e85 and tune it for 12.5a/f. lets see how long it lasts
 
#11 ·
um, the end of the plug got hammered by a hunk of valve, of course it doesn't want to come out easily.

The ecu might display 12.5 : 1 a/f, but truely it is NOT 12.5 :1 a/f. The ecu reads lambda, which works the same for ALL fuels, then you multiply that by 14.7:1 for gasoline, getting 12.5:1. Multiply it by the correct factor for E85, and you would find the true a/f ratio.
Peter was FAR from cautious. He beat the piss out of that cylinder head, never (afaik) made any attempt to dyno tune the car, then one day randomly filled it up with E85 and added 20 degrees of timing with lemmiwinks. If you play like that, you will pay the price, its just a matter of time. Everything in this game is about slow, carefully thought through steps. As soon as you stop thinking, and just start doing, you get yourself into trouble.
I think you guys forget he was running what, 26psi? from a 35r on regular pump gas before the e85! Don't you think those egt's (no timing) may have heat cycled those exhaust valves a few times?
If you don't have any idea what the hell you are talking about, refrain from spreading misinformation.



Modified by 801pete at 7:48 AM 11-29-2006
 
#13 ·
Re: (VWeezly)

igotapresent... why would i tune it for 12.5? Clearly you didn't understand the reason for needing larger injectors. We have already discussed that the stoic. ratio of E85 as compared to gasoline is different. In order to compensate for this more fuel is required, i think that the you need to tune for a/f's around 9.
 
#14 ·
Re: (cardshockey31)

cardshockey31

its easier to just tune for 12.5ish if you have a wide band with petrol software .
E85 wide band software requires that you bring your lap top and thats not a thing you want to do all day every day.
and its easier if you have "chip switch " or adj fpr to just have "normal" calculation on lambda vs afr from a drivers point of view.

you are gonna love E85 when you start using it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#16 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (Jefnes3)

Quote, originally posted by Jefnes3 »
re: the ~cost of running E85.
your gas mileage will drop by ~20% running E85 vs E10 (typical pump gas now).
so, don't get to excited about more power for less money.
-Jeff

I have a 88 chevy van and have found something interesting.The E85v will run much better on leaner mixtures than gasoline.I am also running more timing and its lovin it.I am getting about the same miledge as gasoline at this point.
 
#17 ·
Re: E85:Its like running race fuel, Feasibility with VRT (slappynuts)

Does anyone know if the proper fueling adjustments to run E85 can be made with vagcom, lemmiwinks, and a wideband? If so what are some suggestions to maintain a margin of saftey when getting started. Before anyone says I'm an idiot, I highly doubt that lemmiwinks would be the appropriate tool for this project, but I am curious as to whether it is possible. Do you have any further advice foffa, you seem to be the only one with experience on the subject matter with a VR type engine.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1700349
Is this relevant?

Modified by cardshockey31 at 3:59 PM 11-29-2006


Modified by cardshockey31 at 4:03 PM 11-29-2006
 
#18 ·
Re: (cardshockey31)

Quote, originally posted by cardshockey31 »
Thanks for the advice, I wasn't actually planning on tuning on a/f's I was just trying to make igotapresent realize that 12.5 lambda on E85 does not equal 12.5 lamda on gasoline in terms of a/f ratios.

exactly, i never said they were the same.
 
#19 ·
Re: (igotaprestent4u)

Then how would tuning for the proper stoic. ratio on E85 be any different than gas? E85 burns colder and is more knock resistant than gas; your comments make no sense. I'm not saying that I know more than you when it comes to VW's but in this case I think your are seriously misinformed. Even in the thread that you pointed out no one ever said the blown engine was because of E85, it was simply the result of an engine being pushed too hard with improper tuning and parts. If your going to comment, provide relevant information that you have first hand knowledge of. If you have information that we don't about this blown engine please provide it. I started this thread to produce progress in the VW community. Look at all the success that the evom community had with the meth injection, now they are all jumping on the E85 bandwagon. I'm pointing out a new trend and stating facts, you are trying to blame a new fuel for one member's questionable decision to push his engine too hard. Again, I respect you and your knowledge, but your just not being sensible. If there is something wrong with tuning for the proper stoic. ratio on E85, that we don't know please enlighten us...


Modified by cardshockey31 at 8:48 PM 11-29-2006
 
#21 ·
Re: (cardshockey31)

Quote, originally posted by cardshockey31 »
Thanks for the advice, I wasn't actually planning on tuning on a/f's I was just trying to make igotapresent realize that 12.5 lambda on E85 does not equal 12.5 lamda on gasoline in terms of a/f ratios.

Nope your wrong.The amount of fuel needed to reach that lambda is not the same,but the lambda is.
Example.~ 9.5:1 = stoich on a e85 car and 14.7:1 will also read stoich on a gasoline car.So you want to tune your car to stoich anyways.This means that if your wideband is set to gasoline you need to tune it to read 14.7 because thats how your wideband is set up.If you set it up for E98 then you want it to read ~ 9.5:1 instead.AFAIK there is no way to set up any of the widebands I have see to read for E85 anyways so I just use gasoline stoich and tune it like a gasoline engine.
 
#22 ·
Re: (slappynuts)

"12.5 lambda on E85 does not equal 12.5 lamda on gasoline in terms of a/f ratios."
You misunderstood what I'm saying. I understand that using lambda it already compensates for different stoics so you just go for the same target as with gas, but in reality you are putting more gas in the engine. Am i using the wrong terminology in saying that a lambda wideband reading is different than an air fuel ratio? I don't think so but I've been wrong before...


Modified by cardshockey31 at 12:14 AM 11-30-2006
 
#24 ·
Re: (cardshockey31)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2955060
Quote »

Vishnu Flex-Fuel Lancer Evolution
The Vishnu Flex-Fuel Lancer Evolution began life as a premium-unleaded-burning high performance Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR sedan. Shiv Pathak of Vishnu Performance Systems sought to explore the power-making potential of E85 fuel, and what could be done, with minimal hardware modifications, to increase the output of the Lancer Evolution's turbocharged 4G63 engine. Ethanol fuel contains less potential energy than an equivalent quantity of gasoline, but with a turbocharged vehicle like Lancer Evolution, this did not need to be a disadvantage.
Vishnu tuning modified the fuel system with a higher volume fuel pump and larger injectors to deliver the additional quantity of ethanol fuel that this engine requires. Because of the chemical differences between the two fuels, the turbocharged, four-cylinder engine requires about 30% more ethanol fuel at a given power level than it does on gasoline. A considerable amount of detailed work went into reprogramming of the engine's ECU, revising the fuel and spark timing maps to operate efficiently with E85 fuel. A toggle switch allows the vehicle to select between either ethanol or gasoline. Dynamometer testing indicates that output on E85 (100 octane) is 420 horsepower and output on premium unleaded (91 octane) is 390 horsepower.
The detonation resistance of E85 ethanol fuel allows the engine to utilize more aggressive spark and fuel curves to create additional power with lower cylinder temperatures. As the Vishnu Flex-Fuel Evolution continues its development, higher power levels will certainly be achieved as the ethanol fuel is ideal for very high boost levels.





 
#26 ·
Re: (VWeezly)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif For E85
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif For O2VW1.8T for proving that it runs fine on our engines.
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif For anyone looking for a reason to knock it. Its good ****
 
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