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1) is 8% in 100k miles really that much?
It's not bad, but it's still relevant. I've never had an ICE car lose MPG or decrease its range as it got older. If anything, fuel economy got a little bit better as they got older.

3) You aren't getting degradation in charging speeds. Just improvements in future models. Just like there are various improvements in all vehicles. And if the EV is used 95% as a daily commuting vehicle at 10-15% it's normal range, charging speed is totally irrelevant as you charge for a hour or two overnight anyway. That speed would be the same for a 2012 Model S or a 2022 Model S.
I'm not talking about degradation in charging speed. Just the idea that faster-charging vehicles actually make a meaningful impact during long-distance driving. ICE cars and trucks aren't going to fill up any faster year-over-year at a gas station. It's still a couple-minute process. But going from 140 kW or 150 kW fast-charging to 300 kW or 350 kW charging can make a significant difference when long-distance traveling. I just drove from Baltimore, MD back home to Garner, NC yesterday after an Orioles game. My fastest charge (at a 250 kW charger) took my Model 3's battery from 12% to 85% in 37 minutes. My SR+ is rated for 170 kWH charging IIRC.
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I was reading a story today on Autoblog where the writer went from 16 percent to 84 percent in 16 minutes in a Kia EV6... and that's with a larger 77 kWh battery compared to my 53 kWh battery.

 

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Discussion Starter · #162 ·
Note to those worried about losing the credit for ordered vehicles: there is a special transition rule that applies to vehicles where you have a written contract to buy that was signed before the date of enactment:

(l) TRANSITION RULE.—Solely for purposes of the application of section 30D of the Internal Revenue Code 20 of 1986, in the case of a taxpayer that

(1) after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered 23 into a written binding contract to purchase, a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue 403 ERN22410 5DM S.L.C. 1 Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this Act),

and (2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Secretary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act.


Not sure how VW does orders, but if you put down a deposit, you likely have a written contract. It also creates a potential window this week (House doesn't vote until Friday). If you enter into a contract to buy a vehicle THIS WEEK that won't qualify for the new credit but did for the old credit, you can take the credit even if you can't take delivery for a while. It could make sense to order that Rivian this week if you've been thinking about one.
 

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It's not bad, but it's still relevant. I've never had an ICE car lose MPG or decrease its range as it got older. If anything, fuel economy got a little bit better as they got older.



I'm not talking about degradation in charging speed. Just the idea that faster-charging vehicles actually make a meaningful impact during long-distance driving. ICE cars and trucks aren't going to fill up any faster year-over-year at a gas station. It's still a couple-minute process. But going from 140 kW or 150 kW fast-charging to 300 kW or 350 kW charging can make a significant difference when long-distance traveling. I just drove from Baltimore, MD back home to Garner, NC yesterday after an Orioles game. My fastest charge (at a 250 kW charger) took my Model 3's battery from 12% to 85% in 37 minutes. My SR+ is rated for 170 kWH charging IIRC.
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I was reading a story today on Autoblog where the writer went from 16 percent to 84 percent in 16 minutes in a Kia EV6... and that's with a larger 77 kWh battery compared to my 53 kWh battery.

I would say ICE gets better MPG with some break-in and then decreases MPG as the engine and other mechanical parts wear.

As for charging, you are saying that initially your car didn't charge at maximum speed because chargers didn't support that speed but now they do, so actually you can charge faster on road trips now than previously?

Back when I had a Touareg V10 TDI, I had to fuel up at a truck diesel pump. Talk about refueling speed!!! The only problem is that the Touareg's filler neck was too small for the truck filler nozzle. I ended up wearing a bit of diesel. So ICE refueling speeds can improve. Of course, if you have ever been to a gasoline pump that has a clogged filter, you will find that ICE refueling speeds can be painfully slow too. Like 1/10th of a gallon per minute slow.
 

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I would say ICE gets better MPG with some break-in and then decreases MPG as the engine and other mechanical parts wear.

As for charging, you are saying that initially your car didn't charge at maximum speed because chargers didn't support that speed but now they do, so actually you can charge faster on road trips now than previously?

Back when I had a Touareg V10 TDI, I had to fuel up at a truck diesel pump. Talk about refueling speed!!! The only problem is that the Touareg's filler neck was too small for the truck filler nozzle. I ended up wearing a bit of diesel. So ICE refueling speeds can improve. Of course, if you have ever been to a gasoline pump that has a clogged filter, you will find that ICE refueling speeds can be painfully slow too. Like 1/10th of a gallon per minute slow.
The person I was quoting was referencing cars gaining faster charging capabilities that aren’t applicable to older models — talking about how fast technology advances. I was simple stating that my car, a 2021, is limited to 170 kW charging. New EVs coming out today support 350 kW charging and higher, which is a big time saver.

That’s why I mentioned the nearly 20-minute difference between my fill-up and the aforementioned Kia EV6. 20 minutes here and there adds up on a long trip.
 

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i did also hear that the newer batteries wont have the old limitations of the 20-80% bracket, and combined with faster charging should appease the range anxiety a bit
 

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So with the 7500 back, Bolt under 20K OTD a possibility again? Would be tempting.
Tempting? If you need a 4/5 passenger car for anything but regular long trips and you have the ability to charge at home (even on 110V if you only drive 40 miles/day), then a $20k Bolt is a great buy.
 

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So right now (currently on the market) the choices for any kind of credit would be an ID.4, Mustang Mach-E or some kind of Tesla.

Meh.

I was intrigued by this at first but these production/battery stipulations really take the fun (and incentive) out of it. Might as well buy a non-plugin hybrid or regular ICE version at this point until the automakers adjust.
 

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Another article on the tax credit (or lack of credit):

This is bizarro, surely someone writing this was aware of how the restrictions made it so difficult... maybe that was the point. :rolleyes:

Hey, if it spurns US car makers to move battery production out of China, then it's probably worth it, but it's not helping consumers in the near term.
 

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Discussion Starter · #171 ·
This is bizarro, surely someone writing this was aware of how the restrictions made it so difficult... maybe that was the point. :rolleyes:

Hey, if it spurns US car makers to move battery production out of China, then it's probably worth it, but it's not helping consumers in the near term.
It's a virtual certainty that the regulations will be generously written to allow as many cars to qualify as possible. It's going to shut out some models, but the answer certainly isn't going to be zero.
 

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It also creates a potential window this week (House doesn't vote until Friday). If you enter into a contract to buy a vehicle THIS WEEK that won't qualify for the new credit but did for the old credit, you can take the credit even if you can't take delivery for a while. It could make sense to order that Rivian this week if you've been thinking about one.
I'm in this process now on a Santa Fe plug-in, which would lose the tax credit when the new law takes place. I have a deposit on the car, but it doesn't arrive until 8/20. The House is expected to take up the bill on 8/12.

Note that the day that it all changes is the enactment of the bill - in other words, when Biden signs it.

Tom
 

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Damn, tax credits are being limited just as F-150 Lightning pricing is going up at least $6,000 across the board

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^I love when the EVs lauded as "cool and affordable" inevitably see massive price hikes to make them less affordable.
 

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It's a virtual certainty that the regulations will be generously written to allow as many cars to qualify as possible. It's going to shut out some models, but the answer certainly isn't going to be zero.
I disagree. Under the old plan, the credit was pro-rated on the size of the battery and only limited by how many units the mfr sold. This new version is overall far more restrictive.
 
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