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EV credits back? Manchin pulls a 180.

11K views 277 replies 47 participants last post by  Mazda 3s 
#1 ·
Details are still sketchy, but it sounds like Manchin just agreed on a bill that would extend the $7,500 EV tax credits to manufacturers that are tapped out AND attach a $4k credit for used EVs. Should have details and bill language soon.


So does this change anybody’s mind on EVs? What would you buy if this goes through?
 
#262 ·
Volkswagen Lines Up Tariff-Friendly Battery Supplies in Deal With Canada

Michael Nienaber
August 22, 2022 at 6:51 AM EDT

Volkswagen AG has sealed an agreement with Canada to secure access to raw materials such as nickel, cobalt and lithium for vehicle and battery production, according to people familiar with the accord.

The memorandum of understanding will be signed during German Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s current trip to Canada and is designed to shorten supply chains for VW’s facilities in the US and avoid difficulties linked to tariffs and tax regulations, said one of the people, who asked not to be identified discussing confidential information. The move has partly been prompted by new rules that US President Joe Biden signed into law last week, the person added.
The bill already having one of its intended consequences, moving battery production to friendly partner countries. (y)
 
#69 ·
It's interesting. When we were discussing tax credits for EVs back when EVs were new, people here were complaining about how rich people were getting tax credits when they didn't need them to buy the cars, and working class people needed them to be able to afford EVs. Now, many of the same people are whining that the tax credits are phased out for rich people. Hmmm. I guess it depends on which side of the not-rich|rich line you are.
 
#79 ·
I'm just glad we can now truly judge where we all fall in the rich|not-rich scheme of things. Now instead "What is your monthly payment?" and other popular TCL dick measuring contest thread topics, we can just ask, "Would you qualify for the Federal EV Tax Credit?" 🍺
 
#38 ·
If you can't get it below 300k or whatever, then you are not the person who needs the credit, you just want the credit.
The problem with this mentality is does the country need people to buy EVs/PHEVs more than rich people need to buy them?

I’ll be the first to admit, I don’t “need” a tax credit to buy a car. However, I’m a numbers guy. With the tax credit, my Jeep was cheaper to buy/lease as a PHEV than as a gasser. So I got the PHEV. Without the tax credit, I would have paid more for the PHEV than the gasser, and I probably wouldn’t have bothered.

Smart people do this math. If it pencils out with the credit, but not without it, you’re going to sell less EVs/PHEVs. Maybe that’s ok, but it seems like kind of a silly thing to do, just so some evil “rich” person doesn’t get a tax credit.
 
#106 ·
With the cars needing to be made in America and the battery content impacting the eligibility basically no vehicle qualify now anyway. Then add in the income cap and vehicle price cap and you eliminate even more. And the 4k used incentive has so many damn requirements that I can only think a used bolt would qualify.

In my opinion this just went backwards. The only gains were the loss of the 200k sales limit and the fact it can be applied at sale time.

Does anyone feel like this was basically written for GMs advantage?
 
#109 ·
With the cars needing to be made in America and the battery content impacting the eligibility basically no vehicle qualify now anyway. Then add in the income cap and vehicle price cap and you eliminate even more. And the 4k used incentive has so many damn requirements that I can only think a used bolt would qualify.

In my opinion this just went backwards. The only gains were the loss of the 200k sales limit and the fact it can be applied at sale time.

Does anyone feel like this was basically written for GMs advantage?
Cars must be “assembled” in USA, not necessarily produced, so you could do something like import the Ford Transit Connect from Turkey and assemble some parts and claim ”assembled in USA”.
Also it says that materials and “critical minerals” in the battery must come from the US or a country with a free trade agreement with the US. Currently US has free trade agreement with 20 countries and Korea as one of the countries with car battery tech is on the list.
This bills makes ID4 pretty attractive for my next daily driver.
 
#196 ·
Sounds like we need some sort of "Office of Technology Assessment"... you know to advise government officials on complex technical issues?


Oh wait - we had it for over 2 decades and it paid for itself in the money it saved.... but it was "defunded" in 1995 by part of Genrich's "Contract With America"

 
#10 ·
To help increase inflation, just like the bill says... oh wait... its been a while since I took economics class, but usually you fight inflation by increasing taxes and decreasing expenditure, not giving tax incentives and increasing expenditure. Seems like the government always likes to name a bill the opposite of what it actually does, kind of like if a bill has the word "freedom" in it, you know its not reducing government regulations/oversight and quite the opposite.
 
#74 ·
The one thing that we are really far away from would be to price carbon accordingly and let the free market rule. No tax breaks needed. Even some of the more conservative think tanks backed the carbon-tax idea. Yes, that was 10 years ago before today's toxic tribalism. If you can come up with an agreed to carbon cost, lots and lots of things start working out all on their own. People will shift to BEVs pretty quickly BUT we can't even meet today's demand - supply needs to pick up.
 
#80 ·
Everyone keeps paying attention to, and bringing up the $7,500 tax credit on new EV's.

The big win here, at least to me, is the $4,000 tax credit on USED EV's - That's massive, and will go a lot further to getting the masses into affordable EV's, in my opinion anyways.


Buyers of new electric vehicles would get a $7,500 tax credit applied at the point of sale . That would also apply to vehicles whose manufacturers are no longer eligible for an existing EV credit, such as Tesla and General Motors. Couples who earn less than $300,000 a year or individuals who earn less than $150,000 would be eligible. A new $4,000 tax credit would also apply to purchases of used EVs. Tens of millions of people would qualify for these credits. Other consumer rebates would subsidize the installation of more-efficient heat pumps, solar panels and more.
 
#81 ·
So I haven’t read the bill, apologies if it’s been discussed, but would this credit take into account that many people don’t pay income taxes? Could you have a case where people get $4k at point of sale, and then when they go file in April find out that oops, you were given $4k off your car, but you don’t have $4k worth of tax liability to offset, you now need to pay back some/all of it?
 
#120 ·
People pay more than that for leases where they have no equity whatsoever. *except for the rarity in the past year or so where a few people had ridiculous residuals to value, if they were able to capitalize on it and not have the leasor or dealers scam them out of it.
 
#170 ·
This is bizarro, surely someone writing this was aware of how the restrictions made it so difficult... maybe that was the point. :rolleyes:

Hey, if it spurns US car makers to move battery production out of China, then it's probably worth it, but it's not helping consumers in the near term.
 
#206 ·
 
#5 ·
Doesn’t change me at all, EVs still do not fit into my lifestyle unfortunately.
 
#6 ·
How is this the "Inflation Reduction Act" by raising the prices of EVs by $7500 new and $4000 used? Because you know that sellers will just raise their prices by the tax credit amount, meaning you pay more up front and wait until next year to get your tax credit back.
 
#8 ·
Canadian EV inventory was already effectively 0, and the highlighted items above are just going to mean even more of the new EV share gets allocated to US first (e.g. Tesla upping MSRP towards limits if their customers now get a Point-of-Sale incentive), and any Canadian used EVs left get exported to the US.

Hope ya'll enjoy your EVs :D I'll go back to not being able to get one anytime soon,
 
#22 ·
Manchin is crafty. You have to give him credit for using his power the way he does.

West Virginia is among the most dependent on federal aid....but he's supposedly all about fiscal responsibility. Recent quote = “I don't believe that we should turn our society into an entitlement society,”

So much coal money, historically against most legislation that protects the environment, that does anything to restrain emissons or that raises taxes/penalties on fossil fuel companies......
 
#23 ·
Enh, I think he's burning a lot of bridges. I don't think anyone trusts him, Democrat or Republican; I fully expect him to back out at the last second. Manchin has the dubious honor of having the largest amount of campaign donations from fossil fuel companies in the Senate. Not just among Democrats, but EVERYONE in the Senate. He literally owns a coal mine. Dude has no reason to sign this bill, and the sooner the Democrats in congress realize this, the better off they'll be.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Just looking at the 2021 tax calculator, if your taxable income is $150k/$300k, your Federal Income Tax is 24% (minus the subtraction amount). Single people will pay $30k in taxes. A $7500 credit would still leave them paying $22.5k in taxes. Married people of course pay double so they only lower their taxes from $60k to $53.5k. Uncle Sam would still be doing pretty well for himself even if he gave these people the credit. Fixed tax credits are regressive. They have a reduced effect the more money someone makes.

A married couple with $65,800 taxable income (grossing in the $100k range) who buys an electric car would get a year of no Federal Income Tax.
 
#46 ·
There was a HUGE chipfab bill passed just 2 days ago in the Senate. Actual bi-partisan effort. There is so much going in on BEV production right now, people are scrambling to support the needs just on the engineering and and construction side - it is incredible. I think there are a lot of supply-side incentives but they are all pretty piecemeal and not coordinated.
 
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