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Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (vwemporium)

Thanks for the explanation. Do you know if for the 99.5 Jetta 2.0l AEG engine if a 16725 DTC
can under certain conditions send the ECM and /or throttle control module into the emergency running mode? The owner of this 99.5 Jetta cannot afford to replace the camshaft position sensor and is driving the car with a 16725 DTC present at all times. Most of the time the Jetta runs and drives satisfactorily (actually drives pretty well for 183,000 miles Charity Motors car) but occasionally the Jetta will exhibit a severe driveability problem with no ability to develop any engine power. The DTCs at that time are throttle control module related even though there is a new throttle body with clean grounds and proper supply voltage. The problem is intermittent and cannot be reproduced with any degree if regularity--it just happens under very different conditions.
 
Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (Peter Badore)

Hate to drop in on all of this heavy lingo, but I am having this problem on my vr6 and too am trying to reslove the issue.
The time i notice is most is on startup. It smells very rich. The car has trouble idling andgod forbid I press the accelerator! haha The rpm's will dip to 3-400.
Also from reading the posts it sounds like this seems to be more of a throttle body and ecm problem as opposed to a faulty sensor? I mean correct me if I'm wrong.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (Peter Badore)

Quote, originally posted by Peter Badore »
The owner has the 99.5 AEG 2.0l Jetta (aka Jetta from hell)

I have to agree, my 99.5 AEG jetta is also a jetta from hell. I had similar code ( 16705) and ended up replacing the sensor. The wiring to the sensor was frayed.
 
Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (Santos@Ross-Tech.com)

Has anyone run a 99.5 Jetta or Golf AEG 2.0l engine with the camshaft position sensor disconnected? if so, what did it do? Our Charity Motors project 99.5 Jetta AEG 2.0l is now a no start. I knew I would see it again has soon as the towing company brings it back.
 
Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (Peter Badore)

Peter
Yes the engine will run with the cam sensor not plugged in for a AEG and so will a ABA.
Best,
Jack
 
Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (Peter Badore)

I had the same codes.
Bank 1, Cam postition sensor... blah blah blah.
Im getting my hands dirty tomorrow to get to the bottom of it.
 
Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (Peter Badore)

Peter
Just fix the car.
It runs with reduced output and will damage the Cat eventually.
Best
Jack
 
Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (vwemporium)

The Jetta's owner has limited funds and purchased the car from Charity Motors with a US Federal low income grant of $1800.00 (aka free money). All of which makes the comment "just fix the car" easier said than done--the owner has no money to buy any new parts. Because of this we sold the owner a new throttle body assembly at the shop's wholesale cost not retail. Unlike the US government we can't just ask the Department of Treasury just to print more money! However, we fixed the no start and the related driveability problems yesterday with used parts. I would still like to understand the VW emergency running mode parameters because I stalled the Jetta using VAG-COM to delete fault codes.
 
Re: Fault code 16725 - cam position sensor (Peter Badore)

I'm having similar problems in my car. Replaced the entire distributor with camshaft position sensor inside it. it acts like its in default timing map because I can unplug various things like cam sensor on distributor or knock sensor and nothing changes. Observing OBDII timing advance readout in VAGCOM, at idle its around 12 degrees which is the same as my truck and many other vehicles. In the factory manual it states timing will be retarded I forget some degrees like 12 or something, so it should be zero at idol? But its not, so I don't know what's going on. I haven't yet checked mechanical timing from cam to crank but I will tonight. The belt is tight and new I changed recently, and it was running great. I'm throwing a P0341 Camshaft implausible code. I have factory manual which says more specifically that means the signal coming from the camshaft position sensor doesn't make sense. I know for a fact, previously, if I unplugged the sensor while the car was running it stumbeled and (I assume) went into a default timing map or fuel injection timing map of some sort.
What's amazing about this car, I can rotate the distributor 90 degrees or so, and it will still run. how does the computer know when to fire the cylinders? It must do some fancy testing or knock testing or timing manipulation very quickly to determine i'm turning it. Keep in mind this is with the cam feeback unplugged.
I tested it with a LED and it works perfectly, and ohmed out all wires. I've done all the simple tests (except mechanical) that I can think of.
Anyone know of a way in vag com to more deeper check the timing? See if the car is running default map or receiving correction from the cam position?
I also unplugged knock without any response from the engine, where as I said above manual states it should retard timing severely. But is that default timing map or is it responsive timing with feedback, just retarded 12 degrees?
AHHhhh I wish I knew the algorithm it uses to go into default. Or what some of those many timing fields mean in the engine block inside VAGCOM. I have messed with this thing obsessively and can't figure it out.
Called a specialist in houston who has seen this a lot and he said replace ignition coil, lol. So I'm gonna try that tonight too; I suppose a weak spark could produce knocking or some strange thing the computer somehow detects and throws it into weird default mode.
What about more specific VAGCOM group tests? They aren't in my factory huge bentley manual. They were available to the online version you could used to rent access to through Bentley publishers website but that's not anymore; and I thought it was just in the factory manual but its not, only a couple things like throttle adaption. I know stuff like forcin the EVAP test, i printed out years ago, and still have, but its NOT in the factory manual! Frustrating!
If I knew a more sneaky timing group test or knew what some of those fields meant it might help.
I thought maybe also the MAF sensor could be causing issues since I can unplug it with no response at all from the engine. I still think its in some sort of default timing/fuel map since sensors don't seem to change anything. only code being thrown though is this P0341.AHHHH
Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
 
Re: (Jagster936)

Pull the dist. cap and the gray/black cover under the rotor. Make sure the center of the rotor is directly over the mark on distributor housing at TDC.
I would verify TDC at the Cam,Crank/Dampener and directly at the flywheel. Note the "V" on the flywheel is not TDC, there should be a -0- mark.
Update with your timing belt status and the above mentioned checks.
 
Re: (Dana @ Ross-Tech)

Ok well long story, I replaced the distributor with hall sensor and it does not have any silly mark on the housing. I checked the cam and crank timing and it was indeed off a tooth somehow, lol, don't know if it jumped or what. Anyways corrected that, and put both at the zero, and noted exactly where that is on distributor. It lines up with the center of the spark plug wire so I know its pretty accurate. Still get the code, tried new ignition coil someone suggested just connected it up and still get the code. I noticed my middle ignition wire just pulls out of the connector is this normal, lol. I don't think this would throw that code though! This is crazy. Car runs a little better but still misses quite a bit and is weak.
Previiously, when it would throw that code, but was still close, it would run perfect just throw the code.
I wish I knew what exactly it does to sense this code. I know the sensor works now, I know everything is timed up, and I have rotated and manipulated the distributor around where cylinder 1 is. If its that close it would run perfectly, just throw code. It still doesn't run right so something else is wrong. But why the P0341?
At least now when I pull the MAF it responds by hesitating, which it did not before. But if I pull the knock sensor connector its supposed to retard the engine 12 degrees. I don't know if that's at idol or what. Either way it doesn't seem to be doing it, or maybe it is? I monitor ignition timing on cylinder 1 and its 12 at idol and goes up as you rev engine, but not that high. I have a tacoma that I was monitoring and it went up to nearly 45 degrees car goes to like 22. At higher rpms like 3000.
Since knock sensor directly affects timing, suspicious of it. I'm about out of ideas though this is insanity. It is indeed an old car, 350k miles on it. But it ran perfectly before and now it acts like this. And it only does it when its hot not cold, seems to have good power then, really wierd. Yes I have checked the coolant temp and intake air temp in vag cam everything checks out good.
No easy way to test knock sensor, I think its sending out the MV signal but who knows exactly if its right or not. Would it even throw a code, I don't know.
About out of ideas. I'm pretty sure the ECU doesn't use only the cam sensor to throw that code. I can rotate distributor, with the cam sensor disconnected, up to 90 degrees and the car will still run. That's much more than the contact surface of the distributor rotor and little post that goes to the wires and cylinders. Somehow it determines its not making contact and advanes or retards timing. It must fire the spark super fast or maybe use the knocking to figure out if cylinder is firing. I dunno! Crazy thing
Thanks
 
So what causes a misfire, is that the knock sensor? How does the computer detect this. I know I used to get those codes; I just unplugged a sparkplug and it ran rough and never got a misfire code. Monitoring engine block using VAGCOM.
Another important thing to note is this car runs great when cold, and as it warms up gets weaker until it gets hot and then starts missing a little under heavy acceleration, and loses a lot of power.
I was wondering if the 12 degrees retarded thing from knock sensor only happens once the engine reaches a certain temperature, seems reasonable, but the service manual does not mention this.
I'm beginning to wonder if its a compression or mechanical problem. Someone suggested head gasket but I can't imagine it blowing or leaking just randomly one day. I took it to airport and then when I came back the next week the car ran weird. It happened pretty quickly and I never overheated it. Just one day it was weak.
It might be running a bit better now with the cooler dense air but its still weak. AHHhhh
I think its time for a new used VR6
Image
, but don't want to betray my reliable jetta! Its worth nothing but I'm tired of wild goose chase and dumping money into parts I'm guessing at...
Could also be, least likely, the ECU itself going whacky. Hmm..
 
From what I understand, and I wish I knew more specifically, is the crankshaft acceleration is monitored by the computer through the speed sensor there on crankshaft. This also fires the spark. This acceleration is used along with cylinder firing information to see when a cylinder does not fire. Unless volkswagen does it some other magical way, doubtfull.
It runs so its working that well, but if its not detecting misfires could it be that sensor. Doens't seem likely since it fires correctly for the most part besides a few misses under high load.
Those are two main things in timing circuit crank speed/position sensor and then cam position sensor. I wonder if its worth replacing the crank one. Since its still throwing that code and not running right despite all my efforts.


Modified by Jagster936 at 5:06 PM 10-11-2009
 
Re: (Jagster936)

Quote, originally posted by Jagster936 »
Ok well long story, I replaced the distributor with hall sensor and it does not have any silly mark on the housing.

That mark is absolutely necessary to align the distributor / G40 sensor.
Since the fault was present and the base timing was off, that fault was to be expected. ( I have had this fault after simply adjusting a timing belt with no parts replacement and no previous MIL issues )
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/inde...00833
Have you reinstalled the Original Dist. / Cam position sensor that would have had the proper markings now that the engine is in time?
 
No the original was damaged by an idiot trying to punch out the roll pin for me, bent the gears. I have an aftermarket I guess one on there now. I can tweak the distributor housing to get it exact, and previously when I did all this it did not affect the car's running like this it ran great even with it a little off it can compensate. Something else is wrong, either ECU or something mechanical. I think I might be giving up on this car and getting a different one its not worth replacing random parts on such an old car on a wild goose chase. I'm suspicios of head gasket or loss of pressure or something not sure. Need to do a compression test.
The mark is just there to help you align; its not critical where the distributor is as long as TDC of the crank, camshaft is pointing dead on the cylinder 1 distribution point, wire ya know of the distributor cap housing.
One thing I didn't think of, I assume its at TDC of the distributor maybe its supposed to be 12 degrees advanced? I don't think so though.
I thought maybe the crank sensor was acting up, I measured its resistance at the wire connection and got a little high (supposed to be 3-400 ohms I got 650 or something) but the car wouldn't run at all without it functioning.
I'm wondering more about the cylinder misfire thing used to always get those now I never do, and I can't make it get one. Is that something wrong with ecu? I thought it uses the crank acceleration to do this, which would be computer based. Something very strange going on uggh :/
Anything mechanical, don't know how or why it would throw a code like that.
Regardless of timing in reality, I should be able to trick the computer into being in time even if mechanical time is off between the cam and crank, I can rotate the distro to make it "think" its in the correct position for TDC #1. Hmm..crazy car.
Is it possible it needs to be somewhere other than cylinder 1 at TDC of crank and cam? Maybe the 12 degree thing? I don't know now I got ride of the old distro
 
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