[virgilsg60]

I'm looking to set up my 91 gti with a fmic as I drop in the g60. I'm interested in what you all think is the best set-up for the buck. I gather my options are two saab intercoolers welded together (are these identical in the 9000t and 900t?,) a starion intercool (what modification is needed?) What other intercoolers should I keep an eye open for at junkyards?

 

[G60247]

Re: FMIC Questions (virgilsg60)

Keep an eye on your e-mail, I'm going to send a couple .ppt documents to you with pictures. The size of the entire thing is too big but it will give you some ideas.
Bill

 

[FireShootingG60s]

Re: FMIC Questions (G60247)

send some pictures to me at [email protected] if you would. im interested as well. i already did a huge spearco front mount...im interested in seing what other people are doing. i need a nice looking front mount for the corrado

 

[G60247]

Re: FMIC Questions (FireShootingG60s)

I can send them to you. It's basically a .ppt document with stock IC's with labels of the cars they are from. Some have dimensions. But just to help the junk yard search. I'll send the first couple.

 

[g60racer]

Re: FMIC Questions (virgilsg60)

Here's the link to my gallery, got lots of pics of the process of putting in an FMIC on a G60 whilst keeping the AC. I used a 3rd gen Starion IC and made custom end tanks so the inlet and outlet are on the same side, in order to be able to run the pipes to the stock IC pipe locations and not have to hack even more than I had to out of the front end.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1509423&a=11400430&f=0
If that link doesn't work, just go to http://www.photopoint.com and enter [email protected] in the upper righthand corner to view my galleries. And before the comments are made, no the car is not wearing that G60 grill anymore and yes, there is now grillwork in the front bumper to protect the IC.

 

[hallkbrd]

Re: FMIC Questions (virgilsg60)

Well... I am starting a FMIC project using the huge Ford Diesel Truck one, the IC core is 30" x 18" x 2" with 3" in/outs. I am going to chop it down to 30" x 13" x 2" and place it in front of the A/C coils. I am making a replacement for the center support, but other than that it should fit. I did get a great deal for this one off of Ebay, $140 shipped to my door, new. An additional $200 or so for welding new end plates on it, and I'll have a 780 cubic inch cooler for $350. Sell the old I/C and tubes, and the final cost is closer to $300.
If it works out, I think I could make kits with new ICs (I have a OEM source for these as well) for about $600-$800 with all the piping required and replacement center support.

 

[virgilsg60]

Re: FMIC Questions (hallkbrd)

Interesting proposition. At what point is an intercooler too large? What is optimal for a stage four set-up? What will you be selling--a stock? I also want to know about the pipng. Does one need a rally outlet or can it be fabricated? I'm going sans ac so I aught to have room enough.

 

[hallkbrd]

Re: FMIC Questions (virgilsg60)

quote:[HR][/HR]Interesting proposition. At what point is an intercooler too large? What is optimal for a stage four set-up? What will you be selling--a stock? I also want to know about the pipng. Does one need a rally outlet or can it be fabricated? I'm going sans ac so I aught to have room enough.[HR][/HR]​

It would definitely use the rally golf outlet (unless you already have a BBM or other one). At $25 or so, it's the way to go.
Your IC is too large when it causes additional drag on your car, or adds excessive weight. Other than that, the goal is to get the compressed air as near as possible to the ambient air temperature. One thing that is very important to remember, is that larger IC's (in general) flow better. This means that you loose less psi's in the IC, so more pressure makes it to the engine. An IC (probably like our stock one with it's plumbing) can loose several pounds of boost. Your SC or turbo may put out 15 psi, but with a small IC you may only get 12 at the engine. With a large one, that same 15 psi may only drop to 14 at the engine.
Without A/C, the replacement front support (I think), will not be required. I will know more about this soon, but us people in the sweat belt don't have that option (man I miss Colorado). I plan to use powder coated steel piping (with chrome as a possible option), and silicone hose joints.
I will post pictures as soon as it's in there, along with boost impedance figures.
Bryan

 

[G60247]

Re: FMIC Questions (hallkbrd)

quote:[HR][/HR].
It would definitely use the rally golf outlet (unless you already have a BBM or other one). At $25 or so, it's the way to go.
[HR][/HR]​

Wrong outlet. He's referring to the Non A/c outlet which, if you can track one down, will cost you $400-600 (so I have heard). It makes a U bend and hooks around under the charger.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=144023&postid=1155612#1155612

[Modified by G60247, 11:11 AM 11-27-2001]

 

[hallkbrd]

Re: FMIC Questions (G60247)

quote:[HR][/HR].It would definitely use the rally golf outlet (unless you already have a BBM or other one). At $25 or so, it's the way to go.

Wrong outlet. He's referring to the Non A/c outlet which, if you can track one down, will cost you $400-600 (so I have heard). It makes a U bend and hooks around under the charger.[HR][/HR]​

Why? I am going to attach some hose links with a large U-bend pipe. That costs a LOT less that the $400-$600 for the VW part. It's a nice part, but not worth that!

 

[virgilsg60]

Re: FMIC Questions (hallkbrd)

Sounds like the right price to me. Anyone have a similar set-up? I'd love to get the dimensions (circumference of bend, etc.) so I can save some time.

 

[hallkbrd]

Re: FMIC Questions (FireShootingG60s)

quote:[HR][/HR]send some pictures to me at [email protected] if you would[HR][/HR]​

Here is a picture of the IC in the uncut version

.. Deceptive picture, those are 3" pipes.

 

[DocWyte]

Re: FMIC Questions (hallkbrd)

I installed a starion IC into the front of my '91 G60 GTI. I had to do significant cutting of the bumper rail and the bumper cover to get it to fit. Unlike Brendan I kept it as a single pass design, ie, the inlet and outlet were on opposite sides of one another. This is a much more efficient IC design.
However, the trade off was that one of the IC pipes ran right underneath the IC, which put it only about 1/2-1" tucked up underneath the bottom of the lower lip spoiler on my big bumpers. In other words, it was really low to the ground and could possibly be damaged quite easily if I hit anything. The car also couldn't be towed by a regular tow truck because of this.
Don't discount that, you'd be surprised how many times an old super modified VW ends up getting towed...

 

[G60ING]

Re: FMIC Questions (DocWyte)

quote:[HR][/HR]
Don't discount that, you'd be surprised how many times an old super modified VW ends up getting towed...[HR][/HR]​

back in the day my brother stopped call AAA for a tow and just called the tow truck instead as it saved about 30mins. AAA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
any pics of the GTI's Intercooler setup DocWyte?

Also all of you that think the FMIC can be installed without removing the A/C should really take the front bumper off car and look over every possible path for the IC pipes. I did this in June when I fixed my A/C and now charge cooling is the way I'll go.


[Modified by G60ING, 11:00 PM 11-27-2001]

 

[hallkbrd]

Re: FMIC Questions (redrocketrado)

Thanks for the diagram. Now if those pesky A/C coils were not there...
The maximum I/C size looks to be 22" x 13" with A/C using a modified center support and shelf for a 2" thickness. Without A/C, the full 24" x 13" is available wihtout support modifications.
Anyone ever do a coil relocation to the back of the car?? Hmmmm

 

[G60ING]

Re: FMIC Questions (hallkbrd)

quote:[HR][/HR]Thanks for the diagram. Now if those pesky A/C coils were not there...
The maximum I/C size looks to be 22" x 13" with A/C using a modified center support and shelf for a 2" thickness.
Anyone ever do a coil relocation to the back of the car?? Hmmmm[HR][/HR]​

with a/c on what car????
I hope you don't mean on a Corrado. I think there might be one way to do a FMIC on a Corrado with a/c retained but you will need a custom radiator, condensor, fan. They need to be 2" shorter so the IC pipes can go over the top of the items to where the IC has been grafted into the front coresupport and bumper. A lot of work when a charge cooler can give similar results and not cause a lot of hacking.

 

[virgilsg60]

Re: FMIC Questions (G60ING)

Looking at that diagram, I don't see why you needed to run the IC pipes under the cooler. Am I missing something?

 

[G60247]

Re: FMIC Questions (virgilsg60)

If you are running AC or have the Corrado set-up, that u-bend doesn't exist and you have your inlet for the IC on the same side as the outlet.
Normally the Corrado/ AC set-up has your IC tubing running accross to the driver's side where the IC is and then up to the intake manifold. There is no room though with AC to even fabricate a u-bend set-up etc. Beside the AC condenser takes up too much room in front of the radiator (for a set-up like above). With cutting though some have fitted the Starion IC (which has the inlet pipe hooked around to the outlet side, like in the pics I sent you). And the Starion IC isn't the same size as the Rallye Golf IC.

 

[hallkbrd]

Re: FMIC Questions (G60ING)

Yes, this FMIC will be on a Corrado, G60 type with A/C. Very little cutting is required to do this. I will post specs shortly.

quote:[HR][/HR]A lot of work when a charge cooler can give similar results and not cause a lot of hacking. [HR][/HR]​

???? Maybe we are using different terms, but why would you use charge cooling on a FI car?
Let me explain... In my understanding, charge cooling refers to doing a: TB/Carb to Turbo/Supercharger to Charge cooler to Engine. The reason being is that carb's work much better with vacume than pressure. This is opposed to the intercooler way of: Turbo/SC to Intercooler to TB to Engine. The radiator is the same in both instances, the placement in the air stream determines what it is called.
Now if by charge cooler you mean a radiator and air-to-water heat exchanger setup, I agree it is MUCH easier to put on a C. However, given the same frontal surface area and air flow, it will never cool as well as the air-to-air IC.
But if you want to drag race (or go find a mustang to pick on for a short time), it's a no brainer. The Air/water system with ICE blows the Air/Air system out of the water (no pun intended)

Bryan

 

[g60racer]

Re: FMIC Questions (G60ING)

G60ING:I think there might be one way to do a FMIC on a Corrado with a/c retained but you will need a custom radiator, condensor, fan. They need to be 2" shorter so the IC pipes can go over the top of the items to where the IC has been grafted into the front coresupport and bumper. A lot of work when a charge cooler can give similar results and not cause a lot of hacking.
>>
Well, not really. No custom work needed for radiator or AC... as you know I was not willing to sacrifice my creature comforts for my FMIC, and I retained all the AC and my larger-than-stock radiator without modifying them at all. What I did was copy the Audi 5000 IC which has the inlet/outlet on the same side, make a nice large u-bend reservoir for a smooth 180* air transition, and in retrospect I did not have to carve so much out of the bumper as I did... it only needed to be trimmed a bit. Ah well, result of being the guinea pig. Padfan1's turned out much cleaner as far as the bumper cutting goes. "Hacking" isn't required... now that we know what we're doing, it's only a couple hours labor to trim the bumper and center core. Not too bad.
As far as the "inefficiency" of the 180* bend on the end tank is concerned, if you add up all the angle changes necessary in order to run the Rallye outlet and have the FMIC flow left to right like a standard core, you will find that you end up with the exact same angle transition figure as my setup. Both add to approx 540* from charger to TB. It's just that with one you have the 180* bend at the charger, and one has the bend at the IC. Either way you have the same amount of changes in air direction, the same amount of volumetric efficiency. 26whp sure made it worth my time.