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This past week for Crez and myself has been all about heading down to Atlanta to visit SNS (Jwatts and Mrkrad) for some custom stage-5 dyno chip tuning. We could have done dyno runs here at our local dyno and mailed chips back and forth but I did not want to deal with the hassles and delays that can occur when things are not done hands on.
Crez had everything setup with the dyno reservations and gathered the necessary parts for me to prepare his car. Crez's car is a stage 4 Corrado with a BBM Lysolm charger running a upgrade "15psi" pulley that puts out 17psi so Jwatts recommended red top injectors (310cc) to support the boost. Jwatts sent Crez some chips that made for another car's setup using 340cc or 350cc (I can't remember the exact size) injectors. My feeling was that these chips would run us lean. Our injectors were smaller than what the chip was made for and I was very secure with running the same chip that I had been running my car hard with since September when I received it from SNS after I installed my red tops.
Our trip down with 2 friends Thursday night went fine. Except for the fact that I got really bad fuel about an hour before we arrived in Atlanta Friday morning and my car was detonating all over the place at WOT. I called Jwatts after arriving at the hotel and asked about getting some unleaded 100 or 110 race fuel and he couldn't come up with anything but the subject of Toluene came up so I set off for a gallon at Sherman Williams. I added a gallon to my 12(+/-1) gallons of bad gas and my car was off like a rocket with no pinging at all.
After a short nap we headed over Jwatts apartment to start some pilimary chips. He did say he would have liked us to run the chips he had sent so that he would be a little further along in knowing where our cars were. We sat around while he worked on a chip that both Crez and I would run for the evening. While he was doing this I brought up a few things. The biggest being a few rumors I had heard through the G60 grapevine about how a number of engines blew up last year in the late summer/fall time frame. Jwatts response was "Everybody loses engines." This response got me wondering. So the chips are done and I'm installing the chips into our ECUs when Jwatts says don't worry about putting the shielding, ECU frame and all the screws back in. The screws I can agree with but the other items I think were put in for a reason, especially the shielding.
Well the test drive was very revealing. The vacume/boost point was like an on/off switch, being very abrupt and hard on the drivetrain. The acceleration seemed much better but then again I was running a very high octane fuel mix and the evening was very cool. I returned and waited for Crez to arrive back at Jwatts apartment. Then Crez returns with Jwatts driving. The first thing I notice is how badly his car sounds at idle. And then Jwatts immediately says that he hasn't driven many 268 camed cars but he was sure that it should hit much harder (the power) and says that there was something wrong with Crez's setup. But the thing is the car ran fine before when it had the autothority chip and the only changed to make it idle like crap was the SNS chip. Jwatts says the timing was definitely off a tooth and that it needs to be adjusted. I tell him how I know the car's timing is DEAD ON.

(Back when we first installed Crez's BBM 268 with a BBM adjustable cam gear we were a tooth off on the cam as we installed the setup very late at night just a few hours before a VW show that was 4hrs away that we were going to attend. We dynoed this setup a few days later and got 156hp and 177lbs. I then went back and redid the timing belt job thinking that the cam was off a tooth because the BBM cam gear does NOT have the same marks as the stock G60 cam gear. So I matched up a stock G60 Cam gear and marked where the TDC#1 mark is supposed to be on the front of the BBM gear and retimed the car and Crez felt he picked up a little power)
I told Jwatts that I would check the timing but I was certain the timing was dead on but I'd check it and if it were off I'd retime the car at the hotel. He said that I could be on the marks and still be off. He said, "Don't check the timing just change it!!!" This burned me up as the only thing that had been changed was a chip and the car was sounding like crap. Also Jwatts had never driven Crez's car with the Autothority chip that had Crez driven down to Atlanta on let alone even seen a Lysolm before, made me wonder what he was basing this idea that Crez's car was not timed right on.

(Personally I think that Lysolm just doesn't have the same Horsepower or torque that the G60 has. I really like to see a G60 car run at the dyno and turn right around the next day and run a Lysolm charger with no mods changes from one day to the next other than Pulleys being changed so that the chargers put out the same PSI. I'd love to see the HP/torque/Air fuel/boost curves as recorded by the dyno)
Also Jwatts tells me that there is no need to remove the crank pulley or bottom timing belt cover to change a timing belt so now I'm think what the F have I been doing for the past 7yrs. The VA Beach crew heads out to dinner after arranging to meet the next morning to head over to the dyno around 8am. After dinner we head back to the Marriott and check the timing on the crank and the Cam. And we already know that the ignition was at 6degrees from when we redid the Cam gear mark a few months ago. At this point I decided that I was not going to let them (SNS) touch my car anymore and that I wasn't going to adjust Crez's car to their recommendations. Crez then adjusted his Cam gear to 6degrees of advance as Jwatts recommended and this makes me think that his setup is being put right back to where I had mistakenly put his cam timing at a few months back when installing his cam and gear the first time.
I recommended to Crez that he should NOT have SNS tune his car as we are 580miles away from home for "Everybody loses engines" and that I want nothing to do with his car after it has an SNS chip in his car. Up until now I've cared for/worked on his car as if it was my own. Recently I've actually spent more time with his car than I've spent with my wife that I love VERY MUCH. So I was very unhappy/disappointed when Crez decided to risk losing all the work I'd put into his car over the past year. And needless to say we got into a damaging argument and words were said that can never be taken back (yes it does sound very sappy)
I put my car back to a version of the SNS chip that I've been running since September. (This chip was an SNS stage 5. But I had told them I needed it for red top injectors and 20 psi. I found out this weekend that the chip sent to me a version of Mrkrad's turbo chip that was meant to run green tops. This explains the pining I hear occasionally at WOT low in the RPMs. I plan on getting an off the shelf stage 4 chip and just run rich as can be until I can get another chip company to build me a proper stage 5 chip or until I can afford SDS. If I have to I'll detune my setup for the time being.
I agree to the friends that rode down to watch that I would jump in and not allow anything that is way off my idea of what is right.
We met up with the Atlanta Corrado locals Saturday morning and got to watch some little kids try and burn up a little shrub and a Honda. But I was kicked in the butt by my friends used one of my fire extinguishers on it before the fire dept could arrive.
Everybody headed over to dyno. Crez got on the dyno first while I backed out by telling Mrkrad and Jwatts "I'm going to not dyno tune today so Crez can have more time to get his setup right." While Crez's car was being hooked up by the dyno technician Jwatts was worked on revising a chip for Crez's car. I suggested that we might want to hook up the boost reading for the dyno plotting that way we would then have the HP/torque/boost/air-fuel to allow more information for the tuning experts. So we were looking for a good vacume point to tap into. There were a few suggestions by Jwatts that would disable parts of the vacume system and in my opinion not run the car on the dyno in the same manner as the car would run on the road with everything hooked up properly. So I tapped into the vacume line that runs from the firewall side of the TB to the Vacume manifold/cut off valve on the front of the passengerside strut tower.
At this point I just kept an eye on what was going on but it was out of my hands as I'm now just an observer. I think the first run was at 132hp after which all the other runs begin to blend together and I remember seeing 156hp at some point and my friend swears that the last run was 147hp. I got the print out of what I thought was the last run and it shows a 156.7 hp. Jwatts and Mrkrad come up with the idea that the fuel pump is the reason they can't get stronger numbers out of the car. My feeling was that if the fuel pump were bad there would not be 170.9lbs of torque for the best run of the day. I think the Lysolm just has a different type of power level. But there is one way to solve the fuel pump question and that is for Crez to install a Fuel pressure gauge.
After 2hrs of Crez being on the Dyno,
(It was planned to have both mine and Crez's done within 2hrs, and I didn't think that was possible way back when the plans were first made)
Jwatts and Mrkrad come to tell me that its my time to get on and this is where I got put on the spot about why I didn't feel SNS was right for my car. I like things to be done right to almost an extreme degree and I felt they were a bunch of hacks with chip burning software. I didn't have the Balls to say this to them in person. But I told them that I didn't think their work was my cup of tea and that I'll most likely be going with a overly rich green top chip until I can afford SDS or some other setup that is more in line with style of tuning. I'd rather risk burning up my Cat and O2 rather than burning up my engine and that I thought the chip from the night before was just too hard on my driveline for streetability.
We then watch SNS play with another Corrado and then head back to Jwatts as he wants to burn a new chip for Crez before we head to the Cookout that the Atlanta Boys have setup for a post dyno GTG.
Then we head back to the hotel to relax and unwind. That night while we were out running around the stomping grounds of Atlanta I got a couple of calls on my voicemail from Jwatts. He said that he really wasn't feeling all that well when he was tuning Crez's car and that he wasn't able to put forth his best effort but he had worked on a chip that evening for Crez to pick up before we left. This kind of blew my cork. Why did Crez even spend $200 on the dyno and then all the money for the road trip if he wasn't going to work hard while Crez was on the dyno! Hell we don't know what type of HP/lbs/air fuel numbers Crez car is putting out now with any of the chips he came home with. All this work and money and Crez only received a dyno sheet equal to what he ran 5 months and $600 ago from who knows when in the day and the chip has since been revised 2-3 times
Now his car does pull ok from what I've watched on the road but that is nothing more than it did before.
I really didn't want to say anything at all as I know this will ruffle a lot of feathers but I thought many people would be asking how the weekend went and what my opinion was.
Frank
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (G60ING)

Its too bad the car was not in better operating condition. The fuel system was not functioning. We do not recommend running red top injectors on cars that produce on 13lbs of boost (yes thats how much the lysholm pushed, and plotted according to datalogged connected to the dynojet software). The fuel system was not acting correctly, and the fuel curves were completely whack. The turbo G60 that was dyno'd as well had a very curve, running the same fuel injectors and fpr with a lot more boost.
Unfortunately, as I said the power was nominal for 13psi lysholm charged system. The torque/hp numbers were reasonable for what was there.
Once you see the lyshom graphs you'll understand why I tell people to do turbo for real power, or keep the g-ladder. The torque losses far outweigh any gain to consider the lysholm a power-adder at those boost rates.
Of course you knew this the entire time, like everyone else here. Lysholm's have never made any real power cept on bbm's website
Even the dynotuner who was a very intelligent fellow agreed they are not what they claim they to be.
I'm sorry you wasted your time, but don't put something on US because you cannot follow the instructions we gave you. I've never told anyone to run larger injectors unless they are running high boost. It's pointless and a waste of money.
I agree that you should return the injectors back to stock and use any garden variety stage 3,4 chip. They will all make about the same power for what is there. Hell our stage four chip is only about 1-5% more powerful than the giac stage 4 because all chip tuning for low-mid boost applications squeeze out all they can. There's no magic to that.
Had you brought a car that was fueling properly, running in the target boost range of 18-20psi, we would have had no problems dialing in the proper chip.
We had no problems working with bryson's turbo g60, other than the fact hish turbocharger or boost controller did not hold its boost rate (as it should have)..
I wish you luck with whatever choice you make. SDS is an excellent choice. It was nice meeting some other folks and seeing some nice corrado's but quite frankly
No matter what city you took that car to, you weren't going to make that magic 200whp - sds or otherwise.
ps. this is no shouting match or name calling match, i'm not interested. Foul temperaments are what ruin the corrado spirit. My last word stands that a chip cannot fix a car with underlying problems,no chip made by anybody.
I'm really shocked at your attitude frank, It is piss poor and rude. I didn't even hear a thank you for trying to work out something for your buddies car.. Both danny and I spent valuable time ourselves to help you guys out, I doubt you'll find many others to do the same (for free no less).




[Modified by mrkrad, 11:23 PM 4-8-2002]
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (mrkrad)

the only way you would see 200 whp on 13 psi is if you had 12 to 1 compression and 110 octane



[Modified by joeZX6, 9:13 PM 4-8-2002]
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (redrocketrado)

>turnin off TV and radio, and staying tuned to this soap opera<
well maybe a golf rallye outlet would have helped, i hear theres a surplus in a closet somewhere in GA
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (redrocketrado)

quote:[HR][/HR]Jwatts response was "Everybody loses engines." [HR][/HR]​
Dude , that's funny ! I can't think of anyone who would intentionally 'lose' an engine !
Saw this linked on the DC forum .... wish I could've bee there ( or at least at the ( .Y. ) bars !!! )
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (DeezUU)

quote:[HR][/HR]
Dude , that's funny ! I can't think of anyone who would intentionally 'lose' an engine ! [HR][/HR]​
[raises hand]
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (G60ING)

Sorry you didn't get the numbers you were hoping for, Frank.
People have blown Corrados with stock chips and pulleys. Ususally there are other issues going on to cause them to blow. Our chips aren't wussy chips, so they demand the car be in top condition before they even purchase one. Sh!t, it's not like we're getting rich selling these chips, or even trying to.
When I was changing the waterpump in my car, I decided to change the timing belt at the same time. I didn't have to remove the balancer ... Maybe it was magic
[update: well, if the 4 allen bolts hold the balancer to the timing gear, then it came off. I didn't take the big bolt out. It's been over a year since I did it... I apologize for the brain fart]
Sam's chip file was for the 30# injectors, by the way. At 20 psi (with a 260 cam), he was getting between 12:1 and 11:1 A/F. Crez's car could only generate 12:1 with the same chip at 14 psi, leading me to believe there is a problem with fuel delivery. Please don't talk smack about things you don't know and didn't learn how to do yourself.
A dynojet is good for WIDE OPEN THROTTLE ONLY because it is an inertia dyno with no brake. It's just not possible to tune part throttle with a dynojet. The chip I cut for you guys was for driveability, not power.
Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way, but you guys paid for the chip and the dyno... I thought the extra time I put in to make the chip(s) more driveable would be appreciated, I guess not.
I guess we're just hacks with chip burning software

I'm tired of defending myself... You're lame, Frank. Best of luck to ya.


[Modified by jwatts, 9:13 PM 4-8-2002]
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (ButchHusky)

quote:[HR][/HR]So when is Crez going to chime in on all of this? Does he like his new custom chip or not?
Brian [HR][/HR]​
im glad you asked

i have to be honest. so far, the chip rocks. i emailed jwatts last nite and told him the chip performed very well on the 11 hour drive back to va beach last nite. took the corrado on some high speed runs and scared myself little
....the corrado pulls hard thru the rpms where as the old AT3 chip would die out.... even frank will attest to that after he could only pull a 1/2 car length on me yesterday
i
i admit i was looking for higher #'s on saturday. arent we all? for whatever reason i didnt get them. so what. 200whp is a long and expensive road. im 3/4 of the way there. was it a waste of money? i dont think so. i went to atlanta to get a chip. i got two. one in the corrado and one i will try out next week...
i may or may not have issues with fueling. i discussed this with danny and sam, they gave me some suggestions and i will go from there. frank also has a few ideas that we may also try out....so im extremely optimistic. if you own a corrado u have to be

i really hope this does not turn into a sh1t storm on account of my corrado but i think it already has. that sucks cause we need all the friends we can get. i fully respect the boys at SNS and give them props for hosting us, feeding us and chipping me. and frank.... well, he is like my brother and i have the upmost respect for his corrado knowledge...
peace



[Modified by crez, 8:50 PM 4-8-2002]
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (crez)

hehe this all makes me feel alot better about my 162whp/181wt lysholm pull I had with the fuel cutting out at 5500 RPM's...Crez keep on plugging away man you'll get there eventually..
Branden
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (G60ING)

Well these aren't the results I was hoping to see horsepower wise or damaged friendships.

I try to stay neutral on things I don't know about. However if I have first hand experience I will support products I believe in.
From what I read in G60ing, Jwatts, and Mrkrads post this debate was about tuning doctrine. As a shade tree mechanic I try to learn what I can from books but listening to professional or more experienced mechanic/machinist/engine builders/software tuners is where the real knowledge is.
From what I've seen while watching and listening to these people is there are many different doctrines used to properly tune a car for high performance. The doctriness are 180s different from each other at times and the people that follow the different doctrines will tell you that the "other guy is nuts" yet both side have people that follow them and both sides will have fast cars.
That's what the debate here looks like to me.
I have dynoed SNS chips head to head against Garret chips. The power graphs where just as smooth. I looked for my fuel plots and I don't have them. I will go to the shop to get another print out and post them as soon as I can.
I like and respect what all of you (G60ing, Jwatts, and Mrkrad) have done and I am sad to see things aren't working out at the moment.
I hope my words and SNS versus Garret dyno fuel plot will help.
Llew


[Modified by G60Jetta2dr, 6:08 PM 4-9-2002]
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (G60Jetta2dr)

Very interesting thread....
I happen to be someone who has lost an engine. No blame on anyone

Gotta admire Frank for sticking with his gut feeling and turning down the Dyno after all the distance travelled.

Same goes for Crez, for going against his (obviously) good buddy and doing the Dyno.
Gotta appreciate the SNS boys for the time they put in, and the chip they setup for Crez...he seems to like it!
A lot of time and money was spent. Tensions are high...it'll pass.

Llew - Great post! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (G60Jetta2dr)

Sorry to hear that but I must tell you in the year i have know Danny and Sam every time i come to them with a problem they always know what it is(its actually scary sometimes)
They have my utmost respect, and I really dont know what I would do without thier help.
tuning a chip does require that the car be working in a way the chip tuner expects and if something is off results will not be as good as expected. I think if you guys lived a little closer and worked with the SNS guys you would see better results.
Im glad to hear crez is happy with his chip and if you want then to Im sure SNS guys will help make it even better.
G60ing....well damn man it took me 3 tries to read all that. I do see where you are comming from, and your decision is your own. You obviously know what your doing and it always sucks to have someone second guess you, but dont just toss it out.
And lastly....where are the vids and pics you guys took?? you have a kick ass vid of me on the grass and I WANT IT
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (Iceman666)

Chris, have you changed your fuel filter recently?? Anyway, off topic, I got fired today from the stealership
time to find another job.
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (G60247)

quote:[HR][/HR]Chris, have you changed your fuel filter recently?? Anyway, off topic, I got fired today from the stealership
time to find another job.[HR][/HR]​
Dude, I was going to ask you to get me another ignition switch, my new one is acting up already, and two gaskets for the throttle body.
What you do, get caught with the receptionist in the storage room

BTW, I'm going to ERT to dyno on saturday, Want to come?


[Modified by 90 GT-G60, 2:38 PM 4-9-2002]
 

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Re: G60ING & Crez visit SNS in Atlanta for custom chips on the dyno (TheCancer)

Sorry for the offtopic, I got releive b/c "it just isn't working out". I'm not a pushy type of person so we'll leave it at that. Eric, I wish I got caught w/the receptionist
Unless you are talking about the bigger one
ERT may not be a bad idea, new knock sensor is in, but I'm still leaning out under full throttle.
 
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