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Discussion Starter #1
So my odometer hit 77,000 the other day and lately the slave cylinder has been acting up. Sometimes when I down shift into high revs (I do rev match) or just drive the car "spiritedly" the clutch pedal will occasionally turn to mush for a small period of time. I want to participate in autox this summer so I think I am going to install the stage 1+ clutch kit from fourseason with the dual mass flywheel (or should I go with the single mass version?). This should take care of my slave cylinder and allow me to drive my car without worrying about my clutch on the track. I was also going to replace the tranny/engine mounts with slightly stiffer ones, do r32 control arm bushings, and replace the crackpipe/water pump while doing this. After some reading on here I get the impression that while the tranny and such are out that I should possibly do guides for the timing chain? I hear the chain is pretty solid till about 120,000 or so...
Does anyone have any advice or suggestions? Or is there anything else that you all might suggest replacing or doing while my car is being dissassembled in this way?
I have only owned this car for about 5 months and am relatively new to the awesome vw world. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I will be doing all of the work in a shop with a lift and air tools and such, I don't know if that will affect your suggestions...
thanks guys and gals!
oh wait there are no chicks in the 24v forum
haha



Modified by V_aaRg_6 at 5:18 PM 3-23-2009
 

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Re: Getting ready to do a clutch, have any advice? (V_aaRg_6)

Personally I would leave the stock clutch. Replace that slave cyl before it leaks oil on your clutch and ruins it tho. I wouldn't worry about the 24v timing chain guides, they are beefier than the 12v ones which did break. Stiffer engine mounts are nice, I would advise only doing the dogbone, at least at first, as they will increase in-cabin vibrations, and you might not like it with all three, so you might want to try out just the one first. Replacing the crack pipe is a good idea, and if you do that I would also do the belt and the belt tensioner. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 

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Re: Getting ready to do a clutch, have any advice? (V_aaRg_6)

For the chains, don't worry about them until they make noise. The are fairly durable on the 24V VR6s and I don't know that anyone has hit the "wear limit" on them yet, all the problems seem to stem from turbo usage. See this thread (it is on the front page and still active): http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4291471
Keel in mind that the clutch pedal going to mush could also be the clutch master cylinder. It is advisable to replace the clutch master & slave as a pair. If you are going to be in auto-x, I would say replace the flywheel with a single mass, specifically the 16.5lb steel flywheel. It weighs enough that is won't chatter a ton and should have a little more linear clutch feel.
Your suspension will probably need a refresh in 20-30K miles. The strut bushings and bearing are almost always the first to go. You could replace those (Density Line ones are available that are stiffer than stock for better turn in response). Those are easy too. If you want to upgrade the suspension, know that the front sway bar requires removal of the subframe to change. Otherwise you look like you have it covered. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 

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Re: Getting ready to do a clutch, have any advice? (apstguy)

i would look into a lsd if the trans is going to be out. will help you with your auto xing.
 

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Re: Getting ready to do a clutch, have any advice? (jettaglis)

You want advice, don't drop it on yourself

The axle nut is kind of a special socket 31mm 12 pt IIRC. When I was doing mine I had to push so hard that I broke the little screw that holds the rotors in place in half. It seemed odd that that happened but maybe leave a lug bolt or 2 in the holes so the stress isn't on that little screw http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I've never heard of that happening elsewhere, and i didn't have an impact
 

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Re: Getting ready to do a clutch, have any advice? (jefswat)

-id defintely replace the clutch. get everything done at once.
-16lb single mass flywheel like said.
-i believe the axle nut is a 30.
-not sure what kind of suspension youre running (im not sure if that ever matter), vw has a special tool for aiding in removing the struts. a little football shaped thing that goes in the crack of the spindle and you turn it to open up the spindle, makes like a lot easier.
-take a sheet of cardboard, as you take bolts out, stick them into the cardboard and write down where they came from. i even draw a circle (like the shape of the trans) and put the bolts in the cardboard form their corresponding sides.
-you'll need a helper to bleed the clutch with you
-the starter wires are always a pain for me, tape and permanent marker to make notes where they come from.
-be careful for the little screw on the rotor like mentioned.
-you will have to jack the motor up and down. when you try to remove the trans, you have to pull it out a little and try to spin it (bring the diff up toawrds the firewal) in order to clear the subframe. (probably the longest part) (going in is always easier) once you get it spun, go way down with the motor and slide it out)
-the o2m is a heavy beotch.
-the 2.8L and 3.2L 24v's are notorious for flywheel bolts backing out, make sure to use new bolts, loc-tite, and proper torque specs. same with pressure plate.

if i think of anything, ill make sure to post back up.

-probably a good idea to change out the fluid as well. from what i hear, use oem fluid. there is heavy duty oem fluid, but i forget the part number and who carries it. its expensive, but worth it. 2.8Qts


Modified by koko5869 at 9:05 PM 3-23-2009
 

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FV-QR

Definitely check the master cylinder before you jump in and do the slave. Start by trying to bleed it - I had an issue and was thinking the slave cylinder, but it wouldn't bleed at all. Turned out the master wasn't pushing any fluid. Cost a lot less in parts and labor - as I didn't (don't) have the means to DIY it...
If you do need to do the slave, everything I've heard is that the master will follow in short order, and that you might as well do that while you are at it. I would also go with the FST 16lb steel flywheel and OEM Sachs clutch http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 

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To clear up some confusion, we will be doing the single mass 16.5lb flywheel from FST for this job.
We have the strut mount tool and the spindle spreader tool, so we're covered there ;-)
He also ordered some Hawk HPS and we're gonna look into stainless lines.
So is the consensus don't do the guides while we're in there? He may do TT cams and a tune in the near future, but we'd hate to have to take the trans off in the future if we could prevent something now (if that makes sense)
Suspension will probably be some performance struts and 337 springs, .:R bushings and a RSB for now, more aggressive stuff later
Wish we had fundage for the diffy

Btw, Chris' 24V sounds soooo good as it sits. Magnaflow and cone filter ftw
 

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Well, the stock flywheel is expensive as **** and heavy, and can't be surfaced. We are willing to sacrifice a little chatter at idle for quicker revving and a stouter clutch, not to mention cheaper services in the future.
Although we will certainly try bleeding the clutch hydraulics before replacing anything!
Actually, I've been talking with Chris, and if the clutch bleeds out fine (in addition to just needing to be bled), he'll probably end up putting $700 into a set of TT cams and get flashed. Thank goodness he bought better brake pads
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: Getting ready to do a clutch, have any advice? (V_aaRg_6)

Thanks for all the input everyone! Now that this thread has evolved a little, lets get down to it. Basically my dilema is that I have saved up 1200$ to put into my car and I don't know what to do to it.
My car is stock except for the above mentioned cone filter, magnaflow catback and the soon to be upgraded pads.
My goal is to have a car that is semi-fun on the street (little bit more mid range power) and exciting at the track. I am not too worried about sound or the body for now. Over the summer I will be using my newly acquired auto paint skills to touch up all the body work and get it back to the nice and clean stock look, O and add a rear spoiler.
But until then I need some performance! I know that this is my problem but this forum seems a little static lately, so lets chat it up! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I will be taking it to a dyno early April for some benchmark numbers (I will make sure to post the results).
One last thing, I know that I will probably need to do a clutch within the next year so I will be saving up for that. Part of the big question here is...will it last that long if its just the slave/master thats bad/needs bleeding? There is no slip in the clutch but if I downshift to second at like 45 turn hard and then punch it my pedal goes dead for a bit but it will still shift. Dont forget to throw a couple autox's into the mix

SO if you had my car what would you do with 1200$?
 

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FV-QR

Well, I think the first thing you need to do is figure out the source of the clutch problem. When you say the "pedal goes dead" or "goes to mush" - what exactly do you mean? Typically when the slave goes, the pedal drops to the floor and stays there. If the pedal has a mushy feel, but still operates, that sounds more like air in the lines. There are several ways it can get in there - it could be that it's not your master or your slave. When my master went, the pedal only came up halfway, but worked otherwise.
I didn't do the labor on mine, so I can't be as helpful as I'd like, but start with bleeding. If it bleeds, it's probably not your master - mine would not push any fluid (even doing a bench bleed). If it goes back to mush (maybe a week or month later), I'd say you've got a small leak somewhere that is letting air into the system. Check all the lines - there are something like 6 connections with o-rings throughout the system. When my buddy did mine, he went through and replaced every one of the to be on the safe side.
All that should tell you if you need to do your clutch work at all - 77k miles isn't that many. I'm near 95k on stock and I'm sure there are others much higher... If you do drop the trans, then yes, put the $1200 in there.
If you are looking at auto-x - keep in mind that cams will kick you up a class or 2. Best initial upgrade for auto-x would be lightweight wheels and sticky tires. I know everyone likes 18's for the look, but for auto-x, 15's and 16's are actually better for a number of reasons that I won't get into here. After wheels/tires, definitely suspension. I know that goes against vortex rules of suspension before wheels, but this is for a different purpose
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Re: FV-QR (Veedub_junky)

Thanks dude, that's good input! I'll check all that and update.
I do agree about diagnosing the clutch problem first and and to further clarify mush = little/no resistance. The pedal still has full range of motion and does not stick in one place but there is relatively no resistance when I push it in and then let it out to shift. After a couple minutes of "nice" driving the pedal feel comes back.
I also agree with your suggestion about the tires and wheels, but I don't want to drop that kinda money on wheels yet. I have a set of 17inch milia millie wheels that are by 16x7.5 that I am thinking about putting some good rubber on. But they are UGLY and probably weigh as much as my aristos...so maybe I'll just settle and stick some good all seasons on the aristos. I have spent many of night reading the brakes and suspension threads containing the details of suspension geometry/dynamics and the disadvantages of increasing the radius/weight of anything at the end of a rotating assembly.
So if I don't need a clutch, and after veedub made me realize that in autox I would get bumped up a class (which I dont't want during my first season). I think I am going to spend the money on suspension and start saving for some good tires. Coils and spindles here I come! (well maybe not spindles just yet) haha

sorry for rambling
and thanks for listening
 

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dude, you aren't building a car to the letter of the rules (ie you won't be winning regional trophies), and nobody will be protesting your car anyway, so don't worry about class restrictions. Build the car to suit your tastes and race in whatever class you fall in.
i would use the mille miglias for race wheels (for now) because they are wide-ish, paid for, can fit 235 wide tires, and we could paint them something funky like kawasaki green and absolutely not care about the way they look.
make up your mind. lol
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Re: (stylngle2003)

how do you know i won't be winning trophies huh? HUH?!

I THINK suspension is the thing to do now, I am sure I have enough power to have fun at the track and an upgraded suspension will make it all much more enjoyable. Plus aristos on stock ride height is pretty silly looking...kawasaki green is a good color for those mille pooplias tho, I am down for that regardless. But I'll never make up my mind really and not too many people on here seem to care either way so lets move on.
Anyone else have any opinions/advice before I try and go tackle my clutch?
 

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Re: (stylngle2003)

replace the slave cyl, TOB, along with the flywheel and rear main seal. Remember you HAVE to drop the subframe on the 6mt because the diff is too big to clear. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
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