[Jettaguy87]

If this is not permitable in this forum let me know and sorry in advance.
So my friend has a 95 Civic Ex Coupe with AEM intake and Greddy Exhaust for performance mods, the engine is VTEC. He and I were driving enthusiastically and were dead even going into fourth when we had to shut down. In my 92 Jetta I have a k&n filter with ghetto snorkel intake (it does pull in cold air), 2.0 bottom end with 1.8 top, head ported and polished, 270 cam, cam gear, eurosport catback, chip (sorry not sure which one) and has been estimated by NGP to have around 140-150 hp at the crank. Should my friends Civic be able to hang with me like that? I did spin wheels for like 2 sec or so (we were at a stoplight) cuz my 14" tires aren't real grippy, I'm not a bad driver but I'm real dissappointed. Anyone have any insight? Thanks and please help me feel better.

 

[Fettes Brot]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

if your an 8v then maybe. 16v, no way.

 

[Tornado2dr]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

id say that the estimate of your power at the crank is highly optimistic. still running with digi injection system, right? that still isn't necessarily a bad showing though.

 

[panic]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Tornado2dr)

are u talking top end, or around the twisties or light to light from block to block? also, u running 16v or 8v? top end the civic will prob beat you, the tranny is geared much taller. in the twisties, could b even, vw has great low end torque, but the honda independant suspension is a big plus. light to light on the block, u should win cause the vtec doenst "kick" in till around 4500 rpm or so provided u dont spin the tires.
that is based on equal driving skills among you 2. a bad driver in a fast car does not equal a win.

 

[blackflygti]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

Hmmm...weird..i would think you should be able to pull away espescially since you have a 2.0L. I once raced my friend's Civic Coupe Si (SOHC VTEC) with my '92 Golf and pulled away from him on the highway. My Golf had 1.8L 8v, stock block & head, 272 cam, K&N filter in stock airbox, AMS Digiprom, dual outlet exh manifold & dowpipe, and TT 2-1/4" cat-back exhaust. It made ~120hp.

 

[ThePuke]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

I'd also say that NGP's crank hp estimate is a little high... you should have been able to at least pull on the Civic w/ its torqueless engine... with a 16v it should have been no contest. Practice launching without spinning your wheels and you'll do fine.
By the way, I'm from around Bel Air too, and am there just about every day for work/recreation... if you see the dark green Audi 90 quattro w/ "THEPUKE" tags, give a honk/wave!

 

[lotus7]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

civic is lighter, got the power down better.
your car is 15-20 shy of the estimate, and you didn't take advantage of your superior torque, ie shifting too late. when you got up to speeds where the aerodynamics start to figure, the civic will have the edge.
Skill is the most important factor. Not flaming you.

 

[Jettaguy87]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Josh[deady]Able)

Thanks for the help guys, it's an 8v by the way. I was thinking I was shifting wrong so maybe I'll study up on that and then kick his ass

The wheel spinning issue is big though because it is near impossible to get a good launch without wheelspin, anyone have any tips? If I can remember I let the clutch out around 2500, is that too high? And for the guy who lives around Bel Air, I'll keep a look out!

 

[Andrew Foss]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

you should be able to smoke him, bad. i used to beat lightly modded civic ex's (sohc vtec 1.6, intake exhaust and headers) with my stock 8v up to like 85. then once i did some mods (2.0, 272 cam, lightened flywheel, catback, dual dp, k&n, close ratio tranny) i beat the dohc civic si's till about 100 (that means i had em in the 1/4 mile) and the integra gsr's. you probably are shifting too late, and getting a bad launch. your engine probably dosent have much power above 5500, post up with how much your revving, and how your launching and stuff, maybe your revving outta your power range, or sidestepping the clutch to launch, give us some details.
-andrew

 

[Jettaguy87]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Andrew Foss)

I did shift near 6000 cuz I thought I was still getting power, I usually reach near 35mph in first then chirp second a little so I guess I need to shift a little earlier in first. I too thought I'd be able to smoke him beacuse my car just feels faster, dont' really know how to explain it, he also has 17's (BBS RX i might add, looks suprisingly good). If you know about powerbands and stuff let me know so I can try to get him next time we are out cruisin. Thanks for the help http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

 

[blackflygti]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

Don't sweat it too much. You should be able to smoke a Civic but it sounds like you got a bad launch. I once lost to a bone stock 8v cuz of a bad launch. With all my bolt-ons i didn't catch him until the end of 3rd gear. By that time the race was over. I bogged it pretty bad on the launch and he hooked up pretty good. I used to shift @ 6500rpm in 1st and 2nd then shift around 6000rpm in 3rd, 4th or 5th.

 

[Jettaguy87]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (1992jetta-2)

So does anyone know the correct shift points for maximum torque? I think there was a post about a LONG time ago, and search doesn't ever work for me so any info would be appriciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[blackflygti]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (1992jetta-2)

quote:[HR][/HR]6500 =/[HR][/HR]​

You don't think i should be shifting at 6500rpm?

 

[blackflygti]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

quote:[HR][/HR]So does anyone know the correct shift points for maximum torque? I [HR][/HR]​

You should shift when the car stops pulling hard in that gear. I don't think you should be looking for the torque peak though. Your torque peaks ~3200rpm. Holy smokes...you're not driving a diesel...there's way more left to go. Let's say you wanted to shift so that the next gear drops back to the torque peak that still means you'll be shifting early at ~4000rpm. You haven't even used all the horsepower available to you yet which is ~5500rpm. You want to shift when power starts to drop off in the current gear and you'll be making more power in the next gear. So shifting at ~6000rpm isn't too bad. You could probably stretch it a bit further depending on the cam you're running. Try it without watching the tach. Just launch it and get a feel for when the power is fading, then look down at the tach and see what RPMs you're spinning. But don't take my word for it. Go outside and try it. Pick a stretch of road and a finish line. Try shifting for torque @ 4000rpm, then try shifting for power @ 6000rpm (or whenever the power feels like it's dying off) and see which method gets you there the fastest.

 

[JettaTournament]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (blackflygti)

quote:[HR][/HR]Don't sweat it too much. You should be able to smoke a Civic but it sounds like you got a bad launch. I once lost to a bone stock 8v cuz of a bad launch. With all my bolt-ons i didn't catch him until the end of 3rd gear. By that time the race was over. I bogged it pretty bad on the launch and he hooked up pretty good. I used to shift @ 6500rpm in 1st and 2nd then shift around 6000rpm in 3rd, 4th or 5th.[HR][/HR]​

Yup. Trust me, I'm not bragging but on my own car, my 8 v...I have two torque peaks. This is the same with a lot of 8valves as well. 3500 rpm, and 5000 rpm.

 

[lugnut111]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

No offense but I hope you are getting 140-150 hp at the crank. With the mods you have that sounds very realistic. I own a 93 civic ex coupe (sohc vtec). Before you start the flames, as you can see by my signature, I also own an 86 Jetta. Your friend is taking his car to the 7200 rpm redline on every shift. He has to do this to stay in the power band. My 93 has the following mods: intake, exhaust, underdrive pulleys, kevlar clutch, short shifter, fuel injectors, fuel rail, adj. fuel regulator and its not very fast. If you think you have wheel spin try a civic. I can get spin in 1st thru 3rd if I don't concentrate.( 15 inch pirelli 700z's) Your friends civic has 125 hp stock and the intake and exhaust are probably only adding 8 more ponies. Like the others have already said, use your torque to your advantage. Practice your launches when ever possible. Try to get consistent first. Then work on getting faster. Good luck, you should be able to take him.

 

[Jettaguy87]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (lugnut111)

Thanks for all the responses, I went out today and shifted at 6000 and that seemed quicker than when I was getting up near 7000 before I shifted. Hopefully next time I'll take him, and I'll keep you guys posted. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

 

[clickhappy]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (Jettaguy87)

The torque and horsepower curves on a 91-92 8v gti cross right about 5,500 rpm (my source, AMS dyno results). Shifting at 6k will drop you right in the sweet zone. Anything more and you are just making noise.

 

[veedubs03]

Re: Help Me Settle an Argument with a Civic owner, please. (clickhappy)

peak has to be higher than 6 grand because stock is at 5800. and i know those mods are going to raise it higher in the rpm range. especially with the 270 cam. that ex does have 125hp. dont think because it is vtec'd it is fast. actually the acura integra LS motors are non vtec and faster. my 2 cents is to rev higher than 6 grand maybe 6500? to know for sure get it dyno'd.