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Re: (CdnDub)

YetiMan, what are you using for ignition
because your total advance may still be higher than you think with a vacuum advance dizzy, obviously there should be no vacuum advance at WOT but at part throttle etc you can end up with too much advance fairly easily.
 

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Re: (sloppychicken)

It's vacume advance. It's a knock sensor ignition from a later model GTI.
When i set it up i talked to Collin Geynes at Techtonics and he said to shoot for 30-32 degrees total advance @ 4ooo rpm, which has been my reference (I run it at 30 in the hot summer months). When the weather got colder i bumped it up to 34 @ 4k.
We were doing it at 4ooo rpm as the car doesn't really idle below 1ooo or 11oo rpm and doesn't make much vacume the way it's configured.
When i do get knocking it's at part throttle, so you are probably on to something there.
is there anyway to measure the degrees of timing without a gun that you can set it on?
Other than referencing known marks on the flywheel, not that i'm aware of. I use a Snap-On light where i can dial in advance on the gun and then set it using the TDC mark i have verified on the flywheel (i marked it with a paint that really stands out while having an assistant hold the engine at 4000 rpm.
JH is a solid lifter head, right?

Yes, solid lifter head from a JH motor (84' GTI rab).


Modified by YetiMan at 5:31 PM 12-12-2003
 

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Re: (futur)

VwEEP to answer your question I really wouldn't bother putting more money than you have to into that car. If the motor is still driving OK then just stay with it. If your goal is to be really fast and you want to beat Hondas then you need another car. Yes I said it, sorry to rain on everyones parade but vws are not fast. I have one with the aba 8v swap and love it still because it is just a good driver but don't waste any more money than you need on that car. All these PP heads make like an extra 15-20 crank HP so what you lose by 3 seconds instead of 5, you are still starting from a significantly weaker motor. Hondas just have more power, better aerodynamics and are generally lighter weight and unless your FI it will be hard to win but if your FI then good luck to smog because there are no 50state legal turbo setups I know of for our cars.
Just as an example the most hopped up thing we see here is 12:1 288 cam and all the works and says he is 170crank HP (no dyno yet). well a stock B20 is 160 HP and it is just stock. So you race someone with that and all the cheap bolt on fixers that Hondas have a bundle of and you will surely lose (and if he has any real motor work done than you have no chance at all).
So back to my main point, I still like vws they just drive really nice but if your goal is to win races then look elswhere because with the amount of money it takes to make a fast vw you could get a honda to go just as fast or faster for alot cheaper.
Sorry for any bad grammer english is not my major.
 

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Re: (joeblow)

You have to work with what you got though, you can't just say, "Man the best time I will get in this VW is mid 14 if I'm lucky, might as well get a Honda"
It's all about the style for me. I know it'll never be fast even though I've dumped about 2k into in and that's just on a 2l block and head-work.
New cam, Ported, the valves were cut . The works! It's even polished.
And why are we "wasting" money dumping money into a VW that will always be slow? Because it's a light, stylish, well balanced car.
http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif
 

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Re: (Slow1.8)

I have to disagree.. my 12:1 1.8L 288cammed motor is fast.
Faster than any car i've driven, the difference between a VW and a built honda is torque.. VW motors especially the 8V's make great torque
While i'm probably only making 170hp.. maybe 180.. i probably have 160ft/lbs of torque.. and no i havnt backed it up with dyno figures yet, but i do know how fast it is against other cars. and i also know how fast it is compared to other vw's i've owned or driven.
My gti is also light, probably tips the scales at 1750lbs with a full cage. its gutted and doesnt have much of an interior, but its part of why its fast.
I'm also extremly familiar with honda setups, and work with a guy who road races a CRX worth about 80grand <in parts>.. his 1.8L DOHC Type R engine is as built as it gets, he's got 13:1 compression and throttle bodies and EFI like myself. He's putting down a dyno'd 246hp at the wheels.. thats 280crank hp from a 1.8L.. thats pretty damned amazing and sure its a 4 valve head.. and its got better port design than our vw 8valve heads do, but get this.. dyno.. shows 140ft/lbs of torque.. thats it.. its a very unbalanced motor and makes 246whp at 9600rpm. You dont see many vw motors revving that high.
Another thing to note is that he's been thru 3 motors in the last 3 race seasons.
sure an NA 1.8L vw isnt going to hang with the turbo honda boys or even the custom turbo vw guys running big boost. But its a different motor and a very different experience.
I would happily take any one of the guys off vortex for a spin in my gti and then you can tell me an NA 1.8L 8V vw is slow. Its about a lot more than just a motor
And its not just me there are lots of NA 8valvers on here making mental power.. most are on throttle bodies or carbs now.. and some are even running nitrous for some extra kick.
but the big difference i'm seeing between our motors in built NA fashion and built Honda engines is that ours last more than a few weeks.
I built mine up as an NA motor because i wanted to do something different and fun.. and it is fun, and its stunningly fast.. Its a scary feeling in a mk1 when you can stay on the gas all the way to 8000rpm on a 7000rpm tach with the tach needle dissapearing into the gas gauge and coming back around to 0rpm.. and your still making power and the car is getting faster and faster.
My 200hp Corrado g60 had nothing on my 1.8L NA 8valve GTI. and my GTI was built for less.
 

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Re: (CdnDub)

I think you guys are mis understanding me please don't think I am bombing vws I love mine as iv'e said and yes torque is what they have and I plan to auto-x where torque plays a huge role. but this guy wants street race (drag) as he says good freeway well im sorry but thats HP not torque and to tell him to dump all this money into a vw that he will still see as slow. Also look at hondas they have 50state legal turbos we don't so if we want to compete with that we have to do it while risking being screwed in the A$$ by cops who will then fine us and impound our cars. Also you can get a 50state legal turbo for honda for 3k and get an instant 200hp out of a 1.6l that still beats the 1.8t so it's not even worth swapping that into our cars and to think I spent about 2k for a new 2.0l and ith is still slower but all well I wanted torque so I am happy it is easy to drive I can bogg the think down to 1200 rpm in second gear in heavy freeway traffic and not worry about having to downshift.
So my advice to him is to not bother puttin gmoney into this car just drive it save up and then sell it and get somehting like a mitsubishi or honda that will be a better suited car for him. Or if you really want to stay with the vw then at least due a 16v 2.0l swap.
Oh and to CdnDub I imagine that car might be fast since it is an A1 and those are actually light. However you seemed to have built it for high rpm 288 cam which will lower you torque so now you must be using it for a drag app? Doesn't it still bother you to see that a honda (or 16v vw) can get more hp while still having a better idle?
PS how is that 288 at idle (how rough)? I have a 266 and find it to be perfect for what I want (a little more top end but not too mush sacrafice at the bottom as I said I want to auto-x) and great idle.
Oh and finally you make a god point on the strength of our motors they are almost impossible to break where my honda friends constantly break **** too.
 

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Re: (dan4879)

Quote:
CdnDub..what did you do to the bottom end to make it spin 8k rpm without worrying about it??
thanks
dan
dan Vws have very strong bottom ends and you do not need to worry about spinning to 8,000rpm it is the valve springs that are the weak link and it if you change those you are golden.
 

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Re: (joeblow)

My bottom end is all stock components, new kolbenschmidt 10:1 pistons, stock RD code rodes, block and crank, new german <glyco> main and rod bearings, ARP rod bolts, the bottom end had a full balance, along with the pulleys and flywheel.
Head is what worried me more and i used autotech springs and had everything checked and rebuilt after the full port & polish.
And joeblow, I gotta agree, hp is what wins out eventually on the top end.
But my gti was up at 190km/h on the freeway.. I was only turning 5800rpm and just getting into my powerband, it was pulling harder and harder as it climbed and i backed off because of traffic. with an 8000rpm redline i could see 244km/h with my current tires and gearbox.
my car makes excellent torque even at higher rpm's and a big part of that is a gearbox designed to match the motor. I've got a VW motorsports 4.53:1 Ring and pinion in a 9A mk2 box with a taller 5th gear.
I actually built the car to AutoX and in the end it will also be my daily driver.
It could drag but like most VW's they dont make great drag cars unless you compromise severely on the daily driveability.. altho a few people are even proving that wrong lately.
Sure an NA 1.8L isnt going to be as fast as a turbo 1.8L with the same money into it but its a different beast and you'd build it for a totally different reason.
 

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Re: (CdnDub)

nice thanks a lot
curious, how fast would a bottom end on all stock components and hardware spin?
edit: also, is this the same for an audi bottom end, audi 80 2l block (3a i think)
thanks
dan

Modified by dan4879 at 2:48 AM 12-14-2003


Modified by dan4879 at 2:52 AM 12-14-2003
 

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Re: (dan4879)

I wouldnt want to rev a stock vw bottom end to 8000rpm all day long.. the rod bolts are the weak link on our motors and as long as you upgrade those and arent making over 250hp you should be fine.
The 288cam is radical.. it idles great, lumpy but great, solid idle at 1000rpm, little lumpy at 800 rpm but no signs of stalling.
lumpy doesnt bother me as long as i can idle. emissions testing is another thing.
The key to using a big cam is lots of compression.. i'd never put a 288cam on a stock 8:1 JH block and expect any kind of performance.. you'd probably actually lose more power <over the powerband> than you'd gain
And a 288deg cam is only to big for autoX if you dont build your gearbox to match a high revving motor
my motor winds way out and with a big ring and pinion i can rev high and not go very fast. which equals nice quick acceleration.
 

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Re: (CdnDub)

cool I have found what I wanted all here should read this post.
Torque vs HP: is this true? [Archived] in the 8v archive
damn took me three times but I finally worded this right.

Modified by joeblow at 3:07 AM 12-14-2003


Modified by joeblow at 3:10 AM 12-14-2003
 

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Re: (joeblow)

I've been watching your build, CdnDub, and it's an awesome setup. I go to school with Ian (iandm) btw.

I've taken my 11:1 JH to 180kph against Civics on the highway before, and I've always been either level or ahead of them. I don't do this often though, so I haven't met one that was dangerous to my car. Colovion can vouch for this, since he was there. The Civic that he witnessed was NOT stock, but was NA.
There aren't any MK2VR's in Vic, so the only VR6's I've run against (and stomped) were of the MK3/4 variety.
Your engine is as strong and powerful as the amount of time and money that you pour into it...to a point.
The most expensive pieces to go into my engine were the 10:1 Kolben Schmidt 1st oversize pistons, at about $75cdn (warehouse price) each. There weren't any standard size ones left in Canada, so I got out my dad's boring bar, and went to work!
Running stock 1600 Rabbit cam right now, so the total engine bill was about $500cdn (warehouse pricing). When I was using the 85 GLI timing map in my knock sensor ignition, the engine would spin to WAY over 7000rpm. The springs were checked while I was building the head and are good, so they only start making noise at about 7500rpm or so. I'm using the later timing map now, and it softly limits my revs at about 7200rpm, but gives the engine more balls throughout the rev range. I've been considering going back to the old map and seeing how it compares, since I got my injection working right at the same time as I changed the map.
How fast will your bankbook allow you to go today?
 

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Re: (84_GLI_coupe)

we've got the same pistons
1st oversize.. My block needed a bore, the cylinders were slightly ovaled.
I've leveled TypeR's off the line and rolling road, i've taken out a few V8's off the line and up to third gear, traction is the name of the game there. I dont street race often, but c'mon you spend 2 years building a car, your gonna have to give er at some point.
I've never had the opportunity to play with a Mk2VR or a Mk3/4 Vr or 1.8T yet but i'm sure they would be in for a surprise.
I've taken out <for a ride and a few got to drive her> some experienced dubbers in the car, both aircooled guys who run 12's in the strip and watercooled guys who have competitively autox'd and raced before and all of them were shocked at how fast a car I'd built without a turbo or nitrous. Your right it is about money and how fast you can afford to go but its also about making sure you build a balanced system.
And no i'm not bragging, i dont like to brag, what i do enjoy is helping other people build fast VW's, and i really enjoy sharing what i learn with the vortex crew here.. I have no secrets, my entire engine and car buildup is documented here on vortex and in my photo galleries. I'll post dyno sheets when i've got them and will happily share fuel and ignition maps for my setup with anyone who wants them.
I spent nearly $500 on my cooling system alone, engine was around $3k without the EFI or throttle bodies. Believe me it adds up fast.



Modified by CdnDub at 5:05 AM 12-14-2003
 

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Re: (CdnDub)

There's this one nice 60's Mustang with lots of engine work that decided to play one night. I guess he didn't figure that I could be slightly ahead of him the whole way.

I call it driving fast on a road, not streets. If the other vehicle wants to go fast too, then so be it.
My GLI had clocked 4 years under the knife/socket set, without ever seeing a road. It finally hit the streets running in September this year. The only thing I didn't fully rebuild was the transmission, since it shifted fine, didn't grind, had a locked diff already, etc.
The only thing holding back the current setup is the cam. A Schrick 280 or maybe a TT 280/276 would work very well in this engine.

Did you give a bit extra piston clearance, CdnDub? Stock is about 0.003" or so...I'm running 0.004-0.0045". Revs very quickly with my sub 8lb flywheel. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif MrPlow (on the DOV) got in my drivers seat on the first insured day, stepped on the throttle a bit, got scared, and wouldn't drive with me during the cruise!
He sure had a huge grin on his face though! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 

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Re: (84_GLI_coupe)

Honestly i have no idea what piston clearance was set at.. I gave the pistons, rods, crank, block, pulley/gear and flywheel/pp to High Performance engines here in Burnaby, they have a great reputation for building 1000hp V8's and other monstrosities and do lots of imports as well..
they did all the machine work and I did the assembly. It definitely revs quickly, more and more as it breaks in. i'm running a stock weight flywheel to help combat some of the engine harmonics at higher rpms.. since we dont have harmonic balancers on our motors from the factory <they were never designed to rev past 6k..
If your ever in the vancouver area <ie this side of the inlet> I'd be happy to let you drive it or take you out for a ride. Goes for anyone here as long as i've got insurance at the time..
Since we're on the subjet i'll be posting a writeup with pics tomorrow morning on how to do a mk4 rear caliper swap into a mk1 <assuming you've already done the disc swap itself and have mk2/3 calipers>
And to get this thread back on topic a little, since its diverging a bit, All you gotta do is ask and everyone here is always happy to give advice. You can go as fast as you want as long as you can afford it.
 
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