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Exactly my point. Why didn't they do this from the start or at least as an stag 3+ upgrade. Obviously the kit is not perfect when fueling system is stressed out to its limits. (per HPA quote)
I am an APR user and fan and always thought they did it the right and safe way but with the highest output.

When reading about the HPA upgrade kit I'm not sure anymore when it comes to the stage 3 FSI kit....
First off, I'm not trying to start any sort of tune war here or anything. I have had at least one HPA part on every MKIV+ car I've owned (4 at present) and have good faith in the quality of their tech and the development that goes into it.

I dunno about other Stage 3 owners, but I've certainly never experienced anything that would lead me to believe my car is running on or beyond the bleeding edge of safety. There are a lot of APR Stage 3 Golf R and TTS cars running around racking up daily driving miles, hard track miles, and everything in between. I've got a lamda reading on my FIS, and it never finds its way into (or even near) the danger zone under load. The accelerated cam follower wear is something you'll see with basically any flavor of tune that requires an upgraded HPFP.

If you ever feel that you want more perf than Stage 3 can provide from APR on this car, the Stage 4 program is there waiting for you. If just a little more is what you want, the LPFP upgrade adds an additional layer of safety and a nice bump in area under the curve for much less dough. Otherwise, if you're looking for 4th party support for a Stage 3 car - this is out there now too.

--Matt
 

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To our valued customers:

It has come to our attention some believe another tuner has participated in a tuning exercise, with APR, on a Golf R with an APR Stage III GTX Turbocharger System including their intake manifold. However, this is not correct. The company acted independently from APR and has no affiliation with our company.

The APR Stage III GTX Turbocharger System for the Golf R platform has been a wild success across the world with hundreds of units sold to date. The kit currently holds all Golf R quarter mile records with times as quick as 10.5; a vast improvement over the next closest competitor. APR’s incredible staff of more than 20 electrical, mechanical and calibration engineers have continued to enhance the product many years after it’s initial release to ensure customers across the globe continue to to have the best experience possible.

With owning an APR Stage III GTX Turbocharger System, customers not only have access to APR’s incredible engineering knowledge bank and continued updates, but APR’s world renowned technical support hotline from a company that has a bright future and plans to be here for many years to come. Furthermore, many of APR’s customers also have taken advantage of APR Mobile, APR EMCS Program switching, APR Launch Limiter and APR No Lift Shift, all of which are collectively not available once leaving the APR ecosphere.

APR’s engineers have continued to tweak the system to perfection, and have found the limits of safety, and beyond, making the results shared by the other company a cause for extreme skepticism. Without a larger turbo, or higher octane race fuel, a healthy Golf R simply cannot make an additional 50 HP and 50 FT-LBS of torque as it’s physically impossible unless the vehicle was down on power due to a hardware issue. Upon further investigation, APR discovered the customer indicated a common hardware issue with the vehicle prior to sending it to the other tuner to have it dynoed, diagnosed, and fixed. This issue was related to a common fault in the factory PCV or positive crank ventilation system, which left undiagnosed, will produce less than advertised results, and thus the reason why the company was able to make more power after fixing the issue.

This company went on to make further false claims about the APR fueling system. One such claim was about the duty cycle seen on the injectors. First, direct injection injectors do not operate off a “duty cycle” because it’s not possible to spray them throughout a complete engine cycle. Saying that they are running at 100% is clearly meant to make it sound unsafe when in reality the injectors are off for the majority of the combustion and exhaust stroke leaving them plenty of time to “rest”. It is true that the OEM injectors do not have much headroom left but simply looking at injector on-time only tells a fraction of the story because of the changes APR can make to the starting and ending angles of the injection window. This window is not measurable with off the shelf data logging tools, but is with APR’s proprietary ECUx Explorer data logging suite. The APR System includes a 155 bar rail pressure relief valve, which potentially unknown to the other tuner, increases headroom in the factory fueling system as the factory rail pressure relief valve tends to prematurely open at far lower pressure levels. It’s worth mentioning that APR has successfully run 190bar of rail pressure on this exact engine in the British Touring Car Championship and neither the stock injectors or APR fuel pump had an issue doing so. Lastly, APR uses the OEM Bosch HDEV1 injectors because they were correctly designed for this engine. The other tuner has opted for Hitachi RS4 injectors that typically results in a host of less than ideal operating conditions due to their incompatibility. While we applaud their efforts to improve the fueling system, they unfortunately took a step backwards, using outdated methods from more than a half a decade ago.

To run boost pressure levels necessary to achieve the power levels seen with the APR Stage III GTX Turbocharger System, many proprietary code level changes must be made to accurately control boost pressure above hardcoded limits within the ECU. APR’s electrical engineers spent months redesigning the factory code to work above these levels, which was, and continues to be a feat not often seen elsewhere in this industry. Many tuners must resort to tricks to make the system run. While this can produce results, it’s not ideal and often means poor or unsafe behavior in extreme conditions, especially with the removal of safety measures. As noted in photos of the final product, the factory MAF or Mass Airflow Sensor, a critical part in the Bosch MED 9 engine management system, was left unplugged, further lending credence to the use of unsafe ‘tricks’ to make power.

In conclusion, APR has not worked with any other tuner on the Golf R Stage III GTX Turbocharger system and does not support any other tuners hardware or software. The system is currently maxed out and will not make an additional 50 HP / 40 FT-LBS of torque through tuning / hardware boltons without the use of a larger turbocharger and or higher octane race fuel. Purchase of the other tuning companies ~$3000 w/ install downgrade to the APR Stage GTX Turbocharger system will result in the loss of APR Mobile, APR EMCS Program Switching, APR Launch Limiter and APR No Lift Shift as these items are not compatible without the use of an APR ECU Upgrade. Lastly, APR’s world renowned tech support will be unable to diagnose any issues with the system.

We thank you for your continued support. Go APR!
 

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Respectfully Arin,

this post does NOT belong in our thread. Might be an idea to start your own, we will ask the moderators for their insight. We have chosen our words carefully when speaking to your engineering decisions. We did our homework over the 8 months to ensure the customers car was in order prior to attacking the issues. We have not attacked any of your decisions other then open the door for an alternative.

No lift shift is still an option and you won't need switchable maps with our calibration, it will capture the swing between octane of 91 and 93 without issue. This reported graph is on good old US Chevron 92.

I won't broach your claims of an isolated case as we already have a number of other owners building in the results that Steve has been enjoying since taking delivery. The APR dyno output looked great on our rollers, but the car was simply Lazy on the road. That is now fixed and we don't need 155bar rail pressure to get there. Love to see what numbers this will put out on a hub style dyno like you guys use for all your development and marketing.

Lastly, I can count the number of 10 second stage 3 cars APR has achieved from the claimed hundreds of sold kits with one hand.

HPA never intended to imply this was a collaborative effort. HPA simply got involved to support APR customers seeking additional results from their kits by adding the intake. the journey was longer then expected but the results speak for themselves.
 

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I'm happy to drag out at least 60 time slips where I've ran faster than 10.85 on race fuel and around half a dozen passes on pump fuel that gone into the 10's.
 

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No question it has happened, as per the post, i have seen the accounts and have them on one hand. It does not however speak to the numbers of owners that have NOT managed these results.

As it turns out, The APR package really likes the addition of the intake and for those that are NOT on race fuel and use as a daily driver, getting a different style of ignition map and fueling map to deliver equal or more (more in this case) low end TQ and top end HP has been a win.

For the record, straight from APR!

the OEM injectors in the APR kit were at the limit, there is no argument there, confirmed by Arin,

To our valued customers:


It is true that the OEM injectors do not have much headroom left

the APR engineers engineer to the safety limit and beyond, per Arin

To our valued customers:


APR’s engineers have continued to tweak the system to perfection, and have found the limits of safety, and beyond

The HPA system brings more airflow, more headroom for the injectors and takes the system back into the oem specs for rail pressures, not much to complain about here.:thumbup:
 

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As a professional tuner, with knowledge of most if not all of the tuning tricks in the biz, specially on VAG Med9.
I think apr already takes their tunes very far and a little lean to make more power, maybe even a slight overspinning of the turbo on race fuel.

But besides all that, why don´t hpa just makes a turbo kit on their own, why pony ride on the already "flawed" as you call it turbo kit??

Good luck with your business.
 

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As a professional tuner, with knowledge of most if not all of the tuning tricks in the biz, specially on VAG Med9.
I think apr already takes their tunes very far and a little lean to make more power, maybe even a slight overspinning of the turbo on race fuel.

But besides all that, why don´t hpa just makes a turbo kit on their own, why pony ride on the already "flawed" as you call it turbo kit??

Good luck with your business.
HPA has been asked by a number of APR customers to fit our new short runner intake to their existing system reporting that the engineers at APR would not support them with this hardware upgrade.
HPA has NEVER said the APR kit was flawed. We identified in our process the injectors were on the limit and the rail pressure was well beyond an oem spec and we did not agree with their ignition strategy.

Now APR owners have an upgrade path. We were not interested it telling our customers NO we won't support them because they have APR hardware installed. If there is room for improvement, we will do our best and the Fsi is a real need of the intake!:thumbup:
 

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To our valued customers:

It has come to our attention... Blah Blah Blah...

We thank you for your continued support. Go APR!


This is not an effort to start bashing, but your customer service is crap. Thank you for wasting 8 years of my life with your problematic software and horrible customer service. Every employee you've ever had that has held through and helped me no longer works for you... What does that say? "Buy our dongle, it will allow you to data log and automatically send it to us so we can..." ...ignore the crap out of you after we've taken another $200 from you. Thanks. 🐴💩

HPA, good job. This thread all of a sudden reminds me of the American government's opinions of the Canadian health care system... "There's no WAY it can be better! It's Canada!"
 

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Upon further investigation, APR discovered the customer indicated a common hardware issue with the vehicle prior to sending it to the other tuner to have it dynoed, diagnosed, and fixed. This issue was related to a common fault in the factory PCV or positive crank ventilation system, which left undiagnosed, will produce less than advertised results, and thus the reason why the company was able to make more power after fixing the issue.
The car was not running the factory PCV system when it was tested on the dyno as it was running a catch can system at that time so not a factor.

APR uses the OEM Bosch HDEV1 injectors because they were correctly designed for this engine. The other tuner has opted for Hitachi RS4 injectors.
Incorrect


To run boost pressure levels necessary to achieve the power levels seen with the APR Stage III GTX Turbocharger System, many proprietary code level changes must be made to accurately control boost pressure above hardcoded limits within the ECU. APR’s electrical engineers spent months redesigning the factory code to work above these levels, which was, and continues to be a feat not often seen elsewhere in this industry. Many tuners must resort to tricks to make the system run. While this can produce results, it’s not ideal and often means poor or unsafe behavior in extreme conditions, especially with the removal of safety measures. As noted in photos of the final product, the factory MAF or Mass Airflow Sensor, a critical part in the Bosch MED 9 engine management system, was left unplugged, further lending credence to the use of unsafe ‘tricks’ to make power.
APR tuning or calibrating a car according to you is "proprietary tuning" but if another company uses a different strategy to "calibrate or tune" it becomes "trickery." I would venture to say that all after market tuning strategy is "trickery" or you would be running the OEM software as designed by the manufacture.

I know for a fact with the HPA "proprietary tuning" the car runs, drives and accelerates considerably different than it did on the APR "trickery".

With the HPA software the mid range power delivery and the way the car responds to 1/3-1/2 throttle input make for a more usable power delivery which results in a better driving experience IMHO.




The system is currently maxed out and will not make an additional 50 HP / 40 FT-LBS of torque through tuning / hardware boltons without the use of a larger turbocharger and or higher octane race fuel. Purchase of the other tuning companies ~$3000 w/ install downgrade to the APR Stage GTX Turbocharger system'
Not the reality as previously documented.
 

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I want to see an APR stg 3 vs HPA(pr) stg 3 highway run.
 

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We can probably do that soon. I'm semi nearby (Portland) and my Stg 3 install/build is just about complete. Mine currently has OEM intake manifold with RFD so it would definitely be an interesting test.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
We can probably do that soon. I'm semi nearby (Portland) and my Stg 3 install/build is just about complete. Mine currently has OEM intake manifold with RFD so it would definitely be an interesting test.
We love to have you come up for a few days...and we'd be happy to document dyno before and after. Sending an IM...:thumbup:
 

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We love to have you come up for a few days...and we'd be happy to document dyno before and after. Sending an IM...:thumbup:
I always love to see a "tuner" throw down here on the vortex. I for one used to tune volkswagens and audi's using APR and Unitronic software. Both are good company's but uni at the time did have better customer support. Can't speak of the last 4 or 5 years...


Suck it!
 
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