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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I give a hell of a lot of credit to the 1.8t. It has done amazing things for VW as a company. That being said it has also totally shaken up the VR6. Whereas the VR6 used to mean something it has fallen from grace considerably in the past few years, both becuase of the 1.8t and the fact that 174hp is just not what it used to be anymore. It is truely interesting to see how many new members are now buying 1.8t as opposed to VR6's (no offense to the 2.0 and 1.9 people, thats just not what we are talking about). And I don't think that these are even necesarily "educated" purchases in the sense that people know that the 24v is coming out soon. I think people are choosing the 1.8t over the VR6 becuase they like it better and for those who have researched it, they like it's tunability.
How does this factor into my title? Right now 1.8T's are on top in terms of performance and sheer numbers (representation) in stock form, "normal" modded form, and highly modded form. In 18 months I beleive we will see a shift back to the VR6, and honestly I think that shift will have little to do with the 24v's introduction (even 200hp is not what it used to be, it IS all about 6 speeds though
). While the 24v will put the VR6 back on top in stock form it will still be at a disadvantage in "normal" modded form (I consider this what most people do to their cars, for 1.8t's chip, intake, exhaust, for VR's just intake and exhuast), the real difference will come in the form of the highly modded engines.
Right now only a handful of VR6 owners are using FI, there are hundreds of 1.8t owners pushing ~250 hp. I think this is going to change a whole bunch in the next 18 months. With the introduction of the z-charger, a few turbo setups, the fact that most peoples' b2b warranties will be running out soon, and the stir caused by the 24v's introduction I beleive we will see many more FI VR6's, and most of these people will be running around 270hp, returning some focus to the VR6 in the VW tuning world. As we see more of these monsters roaming the streets and the Vortex, I bet the new owner vr6/1.8t ratio will change again as the VR6 becomes more visible.

Thats all, don't take this as a VR6 vs 1.8t post, I will personally hurt you. There has been so much attention on 1.8t's in the past few years, I just think we will see the vr6 "regain ground" in the near future. These are both truely great engines and it is not the "old" and "next" generation. These things can run side by side, both kicking the sh|t out of VTEC, not each other.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (rs4-380)

Very interesting! What is kinda funny is that I never see GTI 1.8Ts around...everyone at my college is driving VR6s!
I don't think people would buy the 1.8T if it wasn't a) so easily tuneable and b) cheaper than the VR6. A simple chip gives you *amazing* horsepower and torque. You just can't get that from ANY VR6 modification. I like that simplicity too! After having driven a chipped 1.8T, I am quite jealous! However, my car (even stock) is quite a rocket. I rarely drive it hard, and every time I do punch the accelerator, I am surprised. I can see it getting old for someone who drives fast all the time.
Tuners are also supporting the 1.8T more than the VR6. It's cheaper for them, so of course when there is more aftermarket product offered, people are going to get the engine with the most support. And, it isn't yet proven that the VR6 turbochargers/superchargers are reliable and easy to install...
Also, I have to comment about the six speed transmissions that are "in" lately...what advantage is it really? Granted I am not a professional racer or even that mechanically inclined, but I would venture to say that most of us cannot shift fast enoughto produce the magazine numbers. Therefore, if we are spending MORE time shifting through MORE gears, how is that an advantage? I would think that (for drag-racing), a sport automatic transmission would be much, MUCH better (like any of the AMG cars). Eventually automatic transmissions are going to get to the point that they can outshift a person.
Anyway, enough rambling about six speeds. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the coming months...I personally think the 1.8T will be the choice for "beginner" (for lack of a better word, and I mean that loosely, no offense to any of you!) modders due to the ability to upgrade chips easily. The VR6 will be the choice for more hardcore modders who can deal with forced induction installs and possible problems. And the disclaimer of course--IMO.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (rs4-380)

if the VR6 and the 1.8 were equal in price, i wonder if the ratio of VR6 to 1.8's would change. i think union is right in that the 1.8 is cheeper, and cheeper to mod... on top of the fact that it now has more HP stock vs. stock, that has something to do with those being more popular (if they even are) personally i am not into the turbo 4 cyl, the buttery smoothness of the VR is awsome.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (rs4-380)

VR6 or 1.8T......
i got the 1.8T, but only after careful thought. In the end, i still spent more than i planned, so price was ultimately the decisive factor in my car purchase, had they both been the same price, or damn close, i really wonder what I would have gotten....
i love em both though, and its kinda annoying seeing arguments about whats better. i say shutup theyre both VWs and both nice, get what you like and let others do the same.
oh, i also find a 4cylinder turbo to have a certain charm i cant quite put my finger on.....
cheers
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (rs4-380)

I am not sure I agree with your assertion that the 1.8T has made VW what it is today. First off, the 1.8T has only been on US shores, in a MKIV where it really took off, for a little more than two years? VW was already reigning high by the time the 1.8T came out, late in the 00 MY. VW actually started regaining ground with the MKIII's positioning of the Jetta/Golf as a practical, but extremely well engineered German car.
What IS VW today? A premium brand with a sporty twist. The turn actually happened with the Passat in '98. No longer were VW's just good values, but they were something you could be seen in, and possess class. It's sales improvement from the older Passat clearly shows that. This message continued in a big way with the launch of the MKIV in the states. The Jetta and Golf have a level of pinache that was just much higher than the MKIII. Whereas in the MKIII, where the VR6 was rare, more customers began opting their vehicles with VR6's. It is not uncommon at all to see a GTI VR6 or a Jetta GLS/GLX VR6--significantly more visible than in the MKIII.
VW was well positioned as a sporty-entry luxury player. But there was a significant gap in the engine options for the MKIV. I mean, there is a world of a difference between a 115-hp four and a 174-hp six. In late 2000, VW added the 1.8T as a midgrade engine between the 2.0 and VR6. The 1.8T did quickly add the tuner crowd, but the majority of it's buyers were just looking for a mid-way option, as VW intended. In '02, we saw the 1.8T (with 2-3 years left of production) increase to 180-hp, and VW is sending us a 201-hp, 24V version of the VR6, leaving little doubt how it wants the engines positioned in its lineup. Now the MKIV is a versatile platform that is all things to all people--from the value seekers, to the tuners, to the people who wanna ride in style. Considering I see a 3-4:1 ratio of VR6's to 1.8T's, it is hard to fathom how the little engine that could, could in fact change VW from something it already was. So, it was really the MKIV and the B5 as a whole that reignited the VW brand--not the 1.8T.



[Modified by GLS_VR6, 9:27 PM 11-26-2001]
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (GLS_VR6)

quote:[HR][/HR]I am not sure I agree with your assertion that the 1.8T has made VW what it is today. First off, the 1.8T has only been on US shores, in a MKIV where it really took off, for a little more than two years? VW was already reigning high by the time the 1.8T came out, late in the 00 MY. VW actually started regaining ground with the MKIII's positioning of the Jetta/Golf as a practical, but extremely well engineered German car.
[Modified by GLS_VR6, 9:27 PM 11-26-2001][HR][/HR]​
Let me clarify, Sure the 1.8t is mainly offered on us soil, but it has sparked a new iterest in the european compact scene, vw of america, and vw in general have therefore seen large sales increases. You say the turn happened with the Passat, but you have to rememeber the base engine in the passat IS the 1.8t.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (RainbowGTI)

quote:[HR][/HR]
The vr was the king of VWs for years, but now the prince is ready to rule. The 1.8t.
Before all you guys flame me, I people i talk about is the average vortexer. Pipe dreams of a turbo vr are cool, but they are pretty rare. We all know who will win if we turbo the vr.
THE VR
[Modified by RainbowGTI, 10:06 PM 11-26-2001][HR][/HR]​
thats exactly what I am saying, FI VR6's WILL become much more common in the near future, and while the 1.8t may still rule on the salesfloor, the vr6 will humilate quite a few on the street.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (RainbowGTI)

I could have bought a loaded VR6 for the same (yes) price as my current (no leather -my preference, '16 wheels) '02 1.8T... why did i get the 1.8T? Tuneaility. I love the current VR6... but the 1.8Ts potential (right now) is simply too much to ignore. I know that the 24V VR6 will be a beast, but a chipped 1.8T with a K&N filter, DV and DP should still be able to easily take it.
Btw, I can easily "afford" a VR6, my past car (the Celica) stickered for USD 25K.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (RainbowGTI)

Just a couple observations here:
Do you think that VW may drop the 1.8T entirely? I believe that's the route Audi is taking with the new A4, and in a related way the S4 possibly (i.e. naturally aspirated instead of 2.7 twin-turbo).
With all these warranty repairs for MAFs, DVs, and the like, it may be costing them too much to continue their line of turbocharged engines. While it doesn't make sense for them to upgrade the 1.8T to it's current level of power output and discontinue it soon after, it may be a sort of "last hurrah" for all the time and development costs involved in this great little engine.
Sure the "new" VR6 is gonna put out about 200 horsepower, but so does an Acura RSX Type-S, with a Toyota Celica GT-S not too far behind from a naturally-aspirated FOUR-CYLINDER. Yeah I know the VR6 has a lot more torque, but to average Joe Schmoe consumer it's horsepower that is advertised so that's what counts.
And what of the Subaru Impreza WRX? The introduction of this one car has stirred up this entire indusry segment to which EVERY car in this category will be compared to, and may very well fall short of, its performance. How will the VR6 stand up to this? Are we (the North American market in the eyes of VW) FINALLY ready for 4-Motion?
And yes, there is nothing like a turbocharged car, four-cylinder or otherwise. My last car was a '91 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX. The reason why I currently own my GTI is because it is the only factory turbocharged car that I like AND that I can afford. There's simply too much tuner potential for the enthusiast to ignore.
I know I'm all over the place, but I just wanted to share some of my thoughts and opinions. VR6 or 1.8T, long live VW!!!
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (TRBNIUM)

I think the GTI/WRX/Intergra segment of the auto industry will become extremely competitive over the next five years. The car companies are renewing their effort to attract young car buyers and, thus, build brand loyalty. Most of the competition will be using a four cyclinder engine for power.
I think the price of gas will play a role in terms of how popular VW's VR6 cars will be. If gas gets much more expensive, most buyers will look to the four cyl. If the price stays low, the VR6 and its patented growl will gain in popularity. The thing is, a lot of people who drive these cars like the idea of performance for the buck. We aren't all racers. I looked at the performance numbers and fuel economy of both engines and made the decision to buy the 1.8T. I may regret this choice as the car ages, but right now I'm happy. We'll see.
The other factor will be the cost of the VR6 vs. the competition's (mostly four cyl.)cars. Some of those cars already cost as much as the VR6 cars. If the various cost factors are equal or relatively close, more people will choose the VR6. If not, the VR6 will lose popularity. Other competitive issues will also come into play. If VW fails to market all wheel drive cars and the competition (ala Subaru) does, the issue of VR6 popularity becomes moot. I really think our cars need four wheel traction for added stability. The other companies are moving in this direction, so VW will be skating on thin ice if it does nothing.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (rs4-380)

Speaking for myself, I would have bought the VR6 if it cost the same. I bought a GTI GLS as a sub-$20K commuter car and the GLX wasn't in my price range. A V6 is bound to be more durable than a 4 cylinder with a turbo and it has much more low-end torque.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (GeoffD)

Few things here:
VR6 Intake and Exhaust = http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

VR6 Turbo is a very very nice thing
6 speed trannys are cool and all. But they better change the whole gearing. On my 2y(16v) tranny, I'm revved high all day. The newer trannys are all geared pretty long. They need to make a shorter gearbox with a taller 6th. If they keep it the way they are, and then just make a taller 6th, what are you going to gain? Lower revs on the highway. That's about it. No performance gains.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (Bob Opla)

There's also the nagging rumor that the 1.8t will be going away pretty soon to be replaced by a normally asperated 2.0L with equal power to the 1.8T.
So the "tuner" engine will be gone.
I for one love my VR6 and can't wait for the FI options coming in the near future.
 

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The difference is that as a consumer who has spent extensive time testing and researching cars that would compete in the category of GTI 1.8T or VR6, I have come to the conclusion that I hate the RSX...nothing about it thrills me. The s2000 is great but impractical and very expensive. The type R would be the way to go but it doesn't exist new. I will not buy a mitsubishi. I don't want to get into details I just don't consider those high quality cars. As for the subaru....on paper it looks great. I almost convinced myself to buy one a couple times but after a lot of test driving and seeing them at autox courses I am convinced they have a lot of fine tuning to do to get it's quality rating up there.
BAsically no matter what people say, for a good quality car with lots of features and amenities but also smooth aggressive HP available whenever and wherever it's needed the VR6 fits the bill and is reasonably priced. With a lot of the aggressive Turbo upgrades you run into many many headaches with reliability and you still don't have that HP available all the time. It is a tougher ride to fine tune. The VR6 rolls off the lot smooth and impressive...minor mods will take care of its factory shortcomings and you still walk away with a smile on your face a few bucks in your pocket versus the other cars it competes with. It races, it is a comfortable semi-luxury car. It is a great all around car for the enthusiast who still has to work and wants a nice commute.
Then again with a little more cash and attention the VR6 can grow and change in amazing ways and become more powerful and more reliable than the 1.8T. And now that they talk about lowering the price and picking options it may very well come down to picking the GTI platform and then choosing an engine and picking options and if done correctly you may be able to walk away with a VR6 for less than the loaded 1.8T. It is an interesting time right now for this car.
I personally am just waiting around for the next corrado or type R to come out. If it is a VW? all the better. If not then sorry to say they will lose the sports car enthusiast. However they will gain the money of the guy who is settling down, has a wife and kids, a house and a good job and wants some luxury and some power but surely not a race car for his commuter.


[Modified by QuickStick, 9:09 AM 11-27-2001]
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (GeoffD)

I bought a Jetta as a relatively inexpensive commuter car with a little power to boot, a little luxury to give and a little heritage for fun. I bought a VW.
This being my 3rd VW and I have been very happy with their product line. I had a MKI Rabbit Diesel (used but still got 55 mpg), a MKII Golf and my current MKIV Jetta. My last car was a Jeep Wrangler 4.0L, so I miss the ability to do work on my own car with little backlash from the manufacturer. Why did I choose a VR6? Longevity. All things equal - a VR6 runs at lower RPM's at highway speeds and runs at a consistently lower compression. I also wanted to tow. Why a GLX - creature comforts.
Today, if I got a nice bonus, I'd look at a used SLK320 or a used Boxter - talk about fun but I am not ready to pay for all of that depreciation. If I was going to go down the performance sedan avenue - I'd go for the Audi or the BMW route but NYC and its direct suburbs are not very kind to any car of any kind (I live 20 minutes east from the Holland tunnel). I had my car for no more that a couple of months and I had door dings . . . and try to park in a garage in NYC and not get a ding on your bumpers. Until I settle down in a wonderful little town and have the minimal commute to the office, I'll be very happy with my Jetta GLX that gets me on average 28 mpg on my daily commute and 31 mpg on long commutes. I also will not slit my throat if I fund a bump, bruise or blemish on my car.
As far as innovation, I am very excited to finally see the Audi Multitronic. For those who have not seen this, this is an automatic transmission that gives better mileage than a manual xmission while beating a 5 speed in 0-60 times. It is a chain drive with a variable gear ratio - no gear shifting.
Don't get me wrong, I love my VW's - think their great - I just don't think I'll be driving one as my primary car when my salary doubles.
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (QuickStick)

Just a couple points to add...
I believe that not only was the 1.8T welcomed with open arms by tuners because of it's tuning ease, but also because the 12v VR6 aftermarket had run it's course. We've had the 17xhp 12v VR6 since the A2 platform on the Corrado, it's been tuned and tweaked pretty much to it's limit. I agree that we will see a resurgence of the VR6 in the coming years as new products are developed for the 24v type.
I do agree though that many of the new 1.8T owners appear to be ex-Honda, small import guys, interested in the ease and low cost of 1.8T tuning. My decision to go 1.8T was based first on brand loyalty, then on options packages. I liked the VR6, but couldn't live with poor cloth seats or leather, and on and on...
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (QuickStick)

The other factor to keep in mind (and I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned) is insurance. It's cheaper to insure a 1.8T over a VR6. (4cyl vs 6cyl)
Even if the power is relatively the same. I'm getting a Jetta Wagon 1.8T. It's cheaper, more power for cheaper, and I save on insurance to boot.
I don't think getting rid of the 1.8T would be in the best interest of VWOA right now. With all the recent attention this car is getting with the youth market, that would be a step in the wrong direction.
JMO.
Steve
 

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Re: In 18 months VR6's will be back. (ssvr6)

Not trying to be a you-know-what.....but what was the point of this post? The VR6 VS 1.8T war will go on forever.......to each his own.......
 
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