[IndyMK7GLI]

How many of you fellas thought about joining the service and having the military pay for your degree while you serve your country?

 

[ADDvanced]

You beat me to it. Between not knowing the terms of a large loan he signed for and not knowing the difference between gradual and graduated, or caring to know what the terms within the loan document meant kinda says it all. I am not even saying it is his fault, I am saying that this is what you get when you have 18 year old idiots (every 18 year old is an idiot) signing 30 year loan documents.

So I was definitely an idiot at 18 and most likely still an idiot now, but imma stop you about the definition of graduated. I even made an image, complete with dictionary definition. When I hear "graduated", I think of graduated cylinders. You know, ones with a **** ton of LITTLE marks. That is a graduated cylinder. I have never seen a "graduated" cylinder like the one on the right. Ever.

So this 18 year old idiot, who has worked with 'graduated' cylinders, and the literature literally explained it as "This plan works well for certain graduates, such as those who enter career fields they plan to work in for decades and those with low-paying, entry-level jobs who expect to make more money through raises and promotions as they continue down their career track. It is also good for graduates who expect to make a lot of money eventually, but who are not in that position yet. "

So yeah, **** me for assuming graduated meant the literal dictionary definition and meant a series of small changes over time.

 

[XiaoNio]

This is why Fisker, Inc has developed the "Flexee" lease for their 2022 Fisker Ocean. They see the desires of young drivers. So they offer:
1) all electric car
2) a lease offering 30K miles a year (no worries)
3) You can turn in the car any time you want and the lease is over (no term)
4) $379 a month
5) Insurance and service included (freedom)
5) Recycled materials, for example: the carpets are made from plastic pulled out of the ocean. (emotional connection)

So it is basically a subscription. The only factor that keeps the lessee in the deal is that there is a $3000 down payment, so you have no incentive to just turn it in after a few months or a year. But still, take it for as long as you want

So... returning back to the original inten of the thread...

I think this is huge. The whole “millennials hate cars and would rather be on their phones” concept is sort of unproven. Most people I know at my age (elder millennial) would still love to drive a fun car, or go on a road trip adventure, but are unwilling or unable to pay for a desirable car AND have the leisure time to enjoy one. I think the subscription and even rental models show the viability. Plenty of people are renting sports cars on Turo that wouldn’t buy one for themselves. I myself spent $3000 to hoon an S1000RR around Laguna Seca for the weekend with California Superbike. Given the number of track days I’ve managed to make it to, it’s way cheaper than running my own bike.

Regarding medical pay... I can confirm. My sister and brother-in-law are both fellowship trained MD/PhDs at that place in Boston. They make a pittance compared to a private practice proceduralist anywhere else.

 

[The_Real_Stack]

^This.

A lot of people think lawyers make tons of money. The best ones do, like anything else. The average lawyer is sitting around arguing DUIs and writing wills for 70k a year. Law is a classic example of a situation where if you don't have a connection (ie: dad's firm) or going to a top-25 program, you should probably reconsider.

Or a specialty. My sister does communications law, her law school was not great but the comms program was top 1-2 in the country and got her in the big leagues.

I felt really bad for our lawyer when we bought and sold our house. Dude got $500 on each side of the deal and did a ton of work, versus the RE agent who does nothing and gets a big cut of the $20k commission. Really upside down.

 

[bave]

So yeah, **** me for assuming graduated meant the literal dictionary definition and meant a series of small changes over time.

Bud, I get it, not blaming you and not saying you were stupid to think what you did, I'm sorry if you got the impression I was insulting you. My only comment is that this is why putting loan documents like these in front of 18 year olds is markedly stupid.

IMO, you should put the colleges on the hook for the loans. If they don't help you get a job that covers a ratio of education expense, they get a claw back.

 

[The_Real_Stack]

How many of you fellas thought about joining the service and having the military pay for your degree while you serve your country?

I did that and would not recommend. I worked with guys who loved the military and couldn’t believe we got paid to do what we did. I felt like it was a prison and I hated every second of it. And all I did was fart around in a shipyard, not get shot at.

if you want to be in the military it’s a great deal. If you want free college look elsewhere.

also the military can change the terms of the deal at any time. F that.

 

[Cabin Pics]

if you want to be in the military it’s a great deal. If you want free college look elsewhere.

Best thing to do is graduate and go work for a nonprofit. The company I work for is nonprofit, and I forget how many years you have to work for one, but your loans are forgiven. Maybe seven, ten years?

Also, if you're working here as, say, a CNA, CMT, or LPN, and you wish to further your education, we'll pay 100% of it to get you to an RN.

 

[ADDvanced]

Bud, I get it, not blaming you and not saying you were stupid to think what you did, I'm sorry if you got the impression I was insulting you. My only comment is that this is why putting loan documents like these in front of 18 year olds is markedly stupid.

IMO, you should put the colleges on the hook for the loans. If they don't help you get a job that covers a ratio of education expense, they get a claw back.

No worries man, it was more for the trollish, abusive behavior I have seen from others that claim I can't read or I'm an idiot. I am definitely an idiot for a million things but thinking 'graduated' meant 'gradual change over time' is not one of those reasons.

We cool

 

[Nealric]

Best thing to do is graduate and go work for a nonprofit. The company I work for is nonprofit, and I forget how many years you have to work for one, but your loans are forgiven. Maybe seven, ten years?

Also, if you're working here as, say, a CNA, CMT, or LPN, and you wish to further your education, we'll pay 100% of it to get you to an RN.

Like the military, that isn't a free lunch either. Statistically, non-profit salaries are going to be a good bit lower than the private sector. Plus my experience with non-profits is that they tend to be poorly managed (mostly because they are loathe to spend funds on administrative things. The government loan forgiveness program has had numerous problems with people not having loans forgiven as promised, and those problems haven't really been fixed.

Do non-profit work if that's what you want to do in life, not just to get loans forgiven. Once you've made your career in the non-profit sector, it can be difficult to switch to private sector.

I think the main thing with student loans is to have a specific and realistic plan to pay them off before you take them on. A vague hope for a great job is not such a plan.

 

[adrew]

Best thing to do is graduate and go work for a nonprofit. The company I work for is nonprofit, and I forget how many years you have to work for one, but your loans are forgiven. Maybe seven, ten years?

Also, if you're working here as, say, a CNA, CMT, or LPN, and you wish to further your education, we'll pay 100% of it to get you to an RN.

PSLF/TEPSLF is 10 years with 120 payments - the payments don't have to be consecutive, but do have to be made while you have qualifying employment (payments made while unemployed or at a for-profit employer don't count).

It worked for me, though I ended up doing 13 years of ~$75 payments since PSLF was launched in 2007 and I finished grad school in '04. If you work at a non-profit, the optimal technique for PSLF is to pay the minimum amount possible, even doing things like maxing out 457(b)s to reduce your taxable income which lowers the payment. Don't focus on interest or paying down the principal -- just put in as little as possible. This is the official guidance you will get from student loan counselors and isn't shady or dishonest, it's how the program works.

I had several years where I was on the graduated repayment plan... those years initially didn't count as the repayment plans that are required for PSLF didn't exist when I graduated. Those caused trouble for A LOT of people my age but Tim Kaine and friends got some legislation through that said that any payments that were equal to or greater than what would have been made on a qualifying plan can count.

I came out of school with $25k of loans (rent and food, my tuition was free) and ended up having ~$18k forgiven. There are a lot of people on Reddit now who are having much larger numbers forgiven, like $50-150k. That would be life changing, especially for people who wanted to go into necessary rewarding but relatively low paying jobs like social work. It is also nice to have a super low payment when starting out so you can divert money to car and house expenses rather than a $300-500 student loan payment.

 

[adrew]

Like the military, that isn't a free lunch either. Statistically, non-profit salaries are going to be a good bit lower than the private sector. Plus my experience with non-profits is that they tend to be poorly managed (mostly because they are loathe to spend funds on administrative things. The government loan forgiveness program has had numerous problems with people not having loans forgiven as promised, and those problems haven't really been fixed.

They have worked out the kinks and people are starting to have their loans forgiven. Look at the pslf subreddit for a lot of success stories. At first there was a lot of disinformation and issues but TEPSLF fixed a LOT of it - most of the initial issues were people like me who had a lot of time on the "wrong" repayment plan (the correct ones didn't yet exist when we last graduated), those who consolidated loans (resets the payment clock) or who have loans through private lenders. I was in the very first batch of people to have their loans forgiven and a lot of the time I knew more than the customer service reps since, many times I was the first person they'd talked to about PSLF.

The work can be a non-profit, or any government agency. Park ranger, state police, local cop, water department, rec center, health department, elementary school teacher, any job at a university...

 

[DrivinAW8]

Which demographics have been excluded?

do you actually care, or are you baiting an argument? I’d be happy to give you a list of heavily validated, data based books to read if it’s the former.

1) I don't see many of the things you reference as impediments to success as being applicable by and large.

2) minority success stories

3) I understand and accept the fact that some people have easier roads and success comes easier because of a lack or lesser degree of obstacles,

4) but a lot of that just isn't there any more.

5) that doesn't change my point that you can be perfectly successful in a very solidly middle class life by following a pretty basic plan and not particularly exclusionary.

6) Now, if you want to show up to an interview with purple hair, face tattoos, and a set of non-binary pronouns, then you are going to have a hard time in life as a whole.

1) I understand seeing is believing, but you have a narrow worldview (as we all do, it’s impossible to understand everything). Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Again, have empathy.

2) great! I un-ironically love to see these anecdotes of minority success over adversity. however, they are anecdotes, and do not represent the reality of millions of others (and the outgoing administration’s policies and rhetoric.. which will remain a powerful legislative factor beyond Jan. 2021.. have walked back what protections were in place to help increase those anecdotes to a point of statistical significance)

3) this is good to hear from you, but...

4) oof... refer to #1

5.1) the data would prove otherwise, and as you are a numbers guy, I assume that data would resonate with you. as always, data can be manipulated, but there is plenty of raw, unfiltered information that is publicly accessible for you to view, should you care to analyze it yourself.

5.2) what defines ‘solidly middle class’? again, data points to a now 50-year old trend (accelerated in the past 12 years) of the erosion of the middle class as percentage of the population. yes, the upper middle class is stable and possibly even moving to upper class, but the ‘solidly middle’ group is shrinking, and lower middle has trended aggressively towards lower class or even poverty

6) I find this statement a perfect embodiment of exclusionary thinking. yeah, purple hair and face tats are unconventional.

but throughout history (and still today):

what if that purple hair is actually not purple.. but merely kinky, or worn naturally? excluded.

tattoos... tattoos are inherently indigenous and were co-opted by white culture and have largely reached a level of mainstream acceptance. however.. (anecdote alert!)

my Ivy League medical school-educated childhood friend has full sleeves, from wrist to neckline, and now has a prominent psychiatric residency in a DC-area hospital. he is white. he has no issues when in his white coat. but I have reason to suspect he would encounter issues if he walked into a more ‘traditional’ workplace, like engineering or law, or even the trades, retail, or service industry. again.. dude’s white, with a white name, and is very ‘all American’ in appearance, but would quite likely experience exclusion because of his tattoos.

if he was a POC, with a non-Eurocentric name, or had natural hair, and had tattoos on his non-white skin? excluded, doubly or triply so.

this last little quip actually bothers me a lot, and I’m a straight white dude. gender is a social construct. you can argue i’m a flaming liberal cuck or that I’m virtue signaling or whatever other incendiary ad hominem you want to throw my way, but science has evidenced that there is no naturally derived ‘gender’, only sex. This also goes for sexual orientation and identity.

Now, if you walk into a job interview with a they/them on your application or present as queer or anything but straight? In thousands of businesses across hundreds of industries across many income levels and skillsets... you. will. be. excluded.

i could go on, but I am at the limit of the time i want to dedicate to this discussion. More importantly, it is not my job to educate people on this subject when there are experts in this field who publish, research, advocate, and lobby our representatives to help minimize the harmful impacts of these and other viewpoints and laws. These being viewpoints and laws that act as agents of the exclusionary and repressive rules of this game called life. These being viewpoints you share, bave, and laws and rules you get to play by.

If you care to learn, read. If you don’t, i simply have no more time for you.

 

[Nealric]

They have worked out the kinks and people are starting to have their loans forgiven. Look at the pslf subreddit for a lot of success stories. At first there was a lot of disinformation and issues but TEPSLF fixed a LOT of it - most of the initial issues were people like me who had a lot of time on the "wrong" repayment plan (the correct ones didn't yet exist when we last graduated), those who consolidated loans (resets the payment clock) or who have loans through private lenders. I was in the very first batch of people to have their loans forgiven and a lot of the time I knew more than the customer service reps since, many times I was the first person they'd talked to about PSLF.

The work can be a non-profit, or any government agency. Park ranger, state police, local cop, water department, rec center, health department.

That's good to hear, but I'd still be wary about relying on a program that takes 10 years to come to fruition and could be cancelled at any time.

 

[troyguitar]

I wish I had purple hair.

 

[adrew]

That's good to hear, but I'd still be wary about relying on a program that takes 10 years to come to fruition and could be cancelled at any time.

I was initially worried about this at the onset of the outgoing administration as well... but, turns out, it actually can't be canceled at any time. The repayment terms are written in to borrowers' promissory notes. The program could theoretically be discontinued for new borrowers (who would know not to plan their lives around it since it would no longer exist) but everyone already in repayment would be grandfathered in.

 

[Cabin Pics]

Like the military, that isn't a free lunch either. Statistically, non-profit salaries are going to be a good bit lower than the private sector. Plus my experience with non-profits is that they tend to be poorly managed (mostly because they are loathe to spend funds on administrative things. The government loan forgiveness program has had numerous problems with people not having loans forgiven as promised, and those problems haven't really been fixed.

Do non-profit work if that's what you want to do in life, not just to get loans forgiven. Once you've made your career in the non-profit sector, it can be difficult to switch to private sector.

I think the main thing with student loans is to have a specific and realistic plan to pay them off before you take them on. A vague hope for a great job is not such a plan.

Being that we're a non-profit healthcare provider, the salaries seem to be totally fine. But I could see overall non-profits may not pay well. We all do quite well.

 

[ghost03]

I felt really bad for our lawyer when we bought and sold our house. Dude got $500 on each side of the deal and did a ton of work, versus the RE agent who does nothing and gets a big cut of the $20k commission. Really upside down.

Yeah, we just moved and felt the same way. All the involved agents did a lot of work, were great to deal with, and put up with/ smoothed over a lot of BS, but when you compare to what the lawyers do the commission seemed really excessive. I don't even think the agents are making that much--for a couple reasons I expect most of it goes to the firm. We also sensed pressure to do things we didn't want to do in terms of time frame or budget, and judging from house shopping shows this seems to be the norm, e.g.,--"it's a little over budget but it fits all your criteria and omg the view!"

I'm not even joking, the whole experience has tempted me to start a new kind of real estate firm. I don't have a magic formula, but still, I'm pretty sure that industry is ripe for a shake up much the way transport industry was before Uber and Lyft.

 

[Nealric]

I was initially worried about this at the onset of the outgoing administration as well... but, turns out, it actually can't be canceled at any time. The repayment terms are written in to borrowers' promissory notes. The program could theoretically be discontinued for new borrowers (who would know not to plan their lives around it since it would no longer exist) but everyone already in repayment would be grandfathered in.

Healthcare is a bit of a special case.

 

[adrew]

The employer is irrelevant to the PSLF program as long as it qualifies. You don't have to stay at the same employer for 120 months -- you just need 120 months of qualifying payments. So you could do 5 years of payments, take a 1 year sabbatical/travel, then do 5 more years of payments at another qualifying employer.

 

[IndyMK7GLI]

do you actually care, or are you baiting an argument? I’d be happy to give you a list of heavily validated, data based books to read if it’s the former.



1) I understand seeing is believing, but you have a narrow worldview (as we all do, it’s impossible to understand everything). Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Again, have empathy.

2) great! I un-ironically love to see these anecdotes of minority success over adversity. however, they are anecdotes, and do not represent the reality of millions of others (and the outgoing administration’s policies and rhetoric.. which will remain a powerful legislative factor beyond Jan. 2021.. have walked back what protections were in place to help increase those anecdotes to a point of statistical significance)

3) this is good to hear from you, but...

4) oof... refer to #1

5.1) the data would prove otherwise, and as you are a numbers guy, I assume that data would resonate with you. as always, data can be manipulated, but there is plenty of raw, unfiltered information that is publicly accessible for you to view, should you care to analyze it yourself.

5.2) what defines ‘solidly middle class’? again, data points to a now 50-year old trend (accelerated in the past 12 years) of the erosion of the middle class as percentage of the population. yes, the upper middle class is stable and possibly even moving to upper class, but the ‘solidly middle’ group is shrinking, and lower middle has trended aggressively towards lower class or even poverty

6) I find this statement a perfect embodiment of exclusionary thinking. yeah, purple hair and face tats are unconventional.

but throughout history (and still today):

what if that purple hair is actually not purple.. but merely kinky, or worn naturally? excluded.

tattoos... tattoos are inherently indigenous and were co-opted by white culture and have largely reached a level of mainstream acceptance. however.. (anecdote alert!)

my Ivy League medical school-educated childhood friend has full sleeves, from wrist to neckline, and now has a prominent psychiatric residency in a DC-area hospital. he is white. he has no issues when in his white coat. but I have reason to suspect he would encounter issues if he walked into a more ‘traditional’ workplace, like engineering or law, or even the trades, retail, or service industry. again.. dude’s white, with a white name, and is very ‘all American’ in appearance, but would quite likely experience exclusion because of his tattoos.

if he was a POC, with a non-Eurocentric name, or had natural hair, and had tattoos on his non-white skin? excluded, doubly or triply so.

this last little quip actually bothers me a lot, and I’m a straight white dude. gender is a social construct. you can argue i’m a flaming liberal cuck or that I’m virtue signaling or whatever other incendiary ad hominem you want to throw my way, but science has evidenced that there is no naturally derived ‘gender’, only sex. This also goes for sexual orientation and identity.

Now, if you walk into a job interview with a they/them on your application or present as queer or anything but straight? In thousands of businesses across hundreds of industries across many income levels and skillsets... you. will. be. excluded.

i could go on, but I am at the limit of the time i want to dedicate to this discussion. More importantly, it is not my job to educate people on this subject when there are experts in this field who publish, research, advocate, and lobby our representatives to help minimize the harmful impacts of these and other viewpoints and laws. These being viewpoints and laws that act as agents of the exclusionary and repressive rules of this game called life. These being viewpoints you share, bave, and laws and rules you get to play by.

If you care to learn, read. If you don’t, i simply have no more time for you.

At some point....certain demographics have to stop blaming other demographics for their shortcomings...you seem to think one person's experience is moot because it doesn't fit your narrative...one is in control of his own destiny...if he meets adversity there two paths....the lay down and become a "victim" path or the I'm now more determined to succeed path...an individual's attitude is what makes all the difference....