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At some point....certain demographics have to stop blaming other demographics for their shortcomings...you seem to think one person's experience is moot because it doesn't fit your narrative...one is in control of his own destiny...if he meets adversity there two paths....the lay down and become a "victim" path or the I'm now more determined to succeed path...an individual's attitude is what makes all the difference....
While potentially true in an anecdotal sense, through the lens of an entire population and history, what you say and believe is completely and demonstrably false.

Again, if you want to learn history and systems from a law and data-based perspective, I will happily give you some resources that you can dive into.

However, if you want to hold onto your feelings, opinions, and ‘attitude’ towards self-determined ‘destiny’, that’s your right. And that’s all I’ll say about that.
 

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At some point....certain demographics have to stop blaming other demographics for their shortcomings...you seem to think one person's experience is moot because it doesn't fit your narrative...one is in control of his own destiny...if he meets adversity there two paths....the lay down and become a "victim" path or the I'm now more determined to succeed path...an individual's attitude is what makes all the difference....
This sounds pretty familiar...
 

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Yeah, we just moved and felt the same way. All the involved agents did a lot of work, were great to deal with, and put up with/ smoothed over a lot of BS, but when you compare to what the lawyers do the commission seemed really excessive. I don't even think the agents are making that much--for a couple reasons I expect most of it goes to the firm. We also sensed pressure to do things we didn't want to do in terms of time frame or budget, and judging from house shopping shows this seems to be the norm, e.g.,--"it's a little over budget but it fits all your criteria and omg the view!"

I'm not even joking, the whole experience has tempted me to start a new kind of real estate firm. I don't have a magic formula, but still, I'm pretty sure that industry is ripe for a shake up much the way transport industry was before Uber and Lyft.
Agree on all, except I think people get really wrapped up in budget. $5-10-20k in the grand scheme of things isn’t much when diving it over 360 payments. Your interest rate ticking up or down a few bps can really make that irrelevant. It makes me want to scream when people walk over the last $3k of negotiating or won’t look at a house $10k over budget.

But yeah the real estate agent industry is ripe for tearing down and rebuilding.
 

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Certain demographics? I hope you're referring to date of graduation and not race.


I graduated in 2009. Welcome to the real world, BAM, huge recession, no jobs anywhere. Awesome. Out of my graduating class, I would say less than 50% are still in the design profession, and a lot of them are just completely screwed paying back expensive loans with a career that never came to fruition, due to graduating at the wrong point in time. The job market was nuts; you were not only competing against the entire class that graduated that year looking for a job, you were competing with people with 5-10 years of experience who'd just been laid off, and were looking for any job, even entry level. Industrial Design is admittedly a niche career, but from my graduation date in April until Dec 31st, there were SEVEN entry level ID jobs posted. Globally. I applied for all 7, and countless other jobs. One of the positions had over 800 applicants. I got an email from the firm saying they'd narrowed it down to 50 applicants, and they gave us each a sketching/usability task, that we needed to complete in order to be considered. This took about 8-10 hours of my time. Sent that in.... got an email a week later, I had made it into the top 10 applicants, but they ultimately went with someone who had 12 years of experience instead. I don't blame them. My skills were there but my experience wasn't.

It sucked. Starting ID salary is typically 50-60k, but in 2010, when companies were just starting to hire, I took the first job I could find in my area, starting at 38k a year. It took me several years of kicking ass and taking names to make over 50k, and now I'm well above that, but this is all missed out income that could have gone towards a house, student loans, etc etc etc.

I'm doing fine. I'm doing better than average. Many of my close friends are NOT doing fine, purely because they graduated right in the middle of a recession. Once you have a gap in your resume, it's even harder to find work, and it just snowballs from there. So yeah... certain demographics are pissed off, and I empathize with them.
 

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Certain demographics? I hope you're referring to date of graduation and not race.
I don't think they are talking about what you think they're talking about.
 

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2) great! I un-ironically love to see these anecdotes of minority success over adversity.
It shows that these things are possible if you want it. Success wasn't meant to be easy. If accept mediocrity in yourself, then that's the best you will achieve. It really is that simple


4) oof... refer to #1
Not sure what you mean here. If anything, most major corporations are looking for people who aren't white guys to move up and hire, even if that means they aren't the best

5.1) the data would prove otherwise, and as you are a numbers guy, I assume that data would resonate with you. as always, data can be manipulated, but there is plenty of raw, unfiltered information that is publicly accessible for you to view, should you care to analyze it yourself.

5.2) what defines ‘solidly middle class’? again, data points to a now 50-year old trend (accelerated in the past 12 years) of the erosion of the middle class as percentage of the population. yes, the upper middle class is stable and possibly even moving to upper class, but the ‘solidly middle’ group is shrinking, and lower middle has trended aggressively towards lower class or even poverty
Choices, right? The reasons why Americans aren't achieving middle class lifestyles anymore is because of poor choices being made by young adults. Go encumber yourself with $200k in debt for a 30k a year job, bad choice. Refuse to relocate to places with lower COL and more opportunities, bad choice. Shun trades and instead focus on non-economically viable "career paths" that go nowhere, bad choice.

6) I find this statement a perfect embodiment of exclusionary thinking. yeah, purple hair and face tats are unconventional.

but throughout history (and still today):

what if that purple hair is actually not purple.. but merely kinky, or worn naturally? excluded.

tattoos... tattoos are inherently indigenous and were co-opted by white culture and have largely reached a level of mainstream acceptance. however.. (anecdote alert!)
Imagine you are hiring someone for a sales position, are you going to hire someone who turns off a large segment of your customer population? If I am selling facial piercings, then I agree. If I am selling financial services, then no it won't work. Which of those two paths pays better? Honestly, I am not going to take someone seriously who doesn't take their professional appearance seriously. When you get a facial tattoo, that is pretty much you self segregating. Free choice and all cuts both ways.

my Ivy League medical school-educated childhood friend has full sleeves, from wrist to neckline, and now has a prominent psychiatric residency in a DC-area hospital. he is white. he has no issues when in his white coat. but I have reason to suspect he would encounter issues if he walked into a more ‘traditional’ workplace, like engineering or law, or even the trades, retail, or service industry. again.. dude’s white, with a white name, and is very ‘all American’ in appearance, but would quite likely experience exclusion because of his tattoos.

if he was a POC, with a non-Eurocentric name, or had natural hair, and had tattoos on his non-white skin? excluded, doubly or triply so.
Doubtful in medicine, particularly in pscyh. Medicine is massively non white, non male. Go look at the graduating classes of med schools around the nation. If something is covered for your professional appearance then it is a non-issue, that's why I specifically said facial tattoos. Let me ask you this, what if he had a swastika tattoo on the side of his neck? Should that cause him problems? What if he was Indian and that swastika was the hindu reference? :)

this last little quip actually bothers me a lot, and I’m a straight white dude. gender is a social construct. you can argue i’m a flaming liberal cuck or that I’m virtue signaling or whatever other incendiary ad hominem you want to throw my way, but science has evidenced that there is no naturally derived ‘gender’, only sex. This also goes for sexual orientation and identity.

Now, if you walk into a job interview with a they/them on your application or present as queer or anything but straight? In thousands of businesses across hundreds of industries across many income levels and skillsets... you. will. be. excluded.
Yes, I agree on this, you will, and honestly it will impact my hiring decisions. I don't want the drama of conflict, the potential HR headaches down the road, and the thousand other problems you run into with this sort of thing. Call me old fashioned if you want, but I don't understand how people have these non confirming gender roles where suddenly I have to refer to them in plural form or I am an *ist.

If you care to learn, read. If you don’t, i simply have no more time for you.
If you want to be trite about it and someone claim you have some sort of enlightened vision, that's fine, but don't think whatever you are reading that is reinforcing these views is the gospel. There are two sides to this and it isn't as black and white as you would like to believe and the solutions that many on the other side have bring with them horrendous problems of their own. So for all the reading experience you have, do you have the practical experience? I will give you one personal example.

A business I deal with at the board level had a problem with a long term employee coming out as transgender M2F. It was a ~1500 employee company where this person was in regular contact with a large number of those employees. The employee in question suddenly shifted and wanted their pronouns changed, access to the women's bathroom (not a private bathroom), and it eventually spiraled into problems where everything that went wrong was systemic discrimination. It was a nightmare for ~3 years that ended with them being terminated, they sued, they lost. That makes employers reluctant to wade into this. This is the same reason why I have a strict no political affiliating messaging policy in any of my businesses, we had an issue with an outspoken BLM person causing issues at work.
 

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Certain demographics? I hope you're referring to date of graduation and not race.


I graduated in 2009. Welcome to the real world, BAM, huge recession, no jobs anywhere. Awesome. Out of my graduating class, I would say less than 50% are still in the design profession, and a lot of them are just completely screwed paying back expensive loans with a career that never came to fruition, due to graduating at the wrong point in time. The job market was nuts; you were not only competing against the entire class that graduated that year looking for a job, you were competing with people with 5-10 years of experience who'd just been laid off, and were looking for any job, even entry level. Industrial Design is admittedly a niche career, but from my graduation date in April until Dec 31st, there were SEVEN entry level ID jobs posted. Globally. I applied for all 7, and countless other jobs. One of the positions had over 800 applicants. I got an email from the firm saying they'd narrowed it down to 50 applicants, and they gave us each a sketching/usability task, that we needed to complete in order to be considered. This took about 8-10 hours of my time. Sent that in.... got an email a week later, I had made it into the top 10 applicants, but they ultimately went with someone who had 12 years of experience instead. I don't blame them. My skills were there but my experience wasn't.

It sucked. Starting ID salary is typically 50-60k, but in 2010, when companies were just starting to hire, I took the first job I could find in my area, starting at 38k a year. It took me several years of kicking ass and taking names to make over 50k, and now I'm well above that, but this is all missed out income that could have gone towards a house, student loans, etc etc etc.

I'm doing fine. I'm doing better than average. Many of my close friends are NOT doing fine, purely because they graduated right in the middle of a recession. Once you have a gap in your resume, it's even harder to find work, and it just snowballs from there. So yeah... certain demographics are pissed off, and I empathize with them.
It's called life....it happens.... nobody ever told you it wasn't always fair?! I got out of the service the day after 9/11...the aviation industry in my home state as I'm sure it was in a lot of places took a shellacking....my life/career path got blown to smithereens right as I exited the service.....you college boys aren't the only ones facing rough times....I dibble dabbled here and there taking any jobs that interested me for some years until I happened on my career...I didn't go to college and I'm not doing the job I would've went to college for....I do very well...I also worked very hard to get where I'm at...I drive a 19 GLI because I wanted something fun and cheap to drive...my daughter took my 2007 fusion with 180k miles on it when she started driving...my house is modest...I don't feel the need to keep up with the Jones' and I live within my means....I think alot of people have unrealistic expectations about what they should be making or what they should have right out of school....jmo...I guess the whole point of my post is: the decisions you make, make the life you live! You decided to go to college...with that choice comes debt....life is debt...you just have to balance risk vs reward...and in case you missed it....life isn't fair!
 

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At some point....certain demographics have to stop blaming other demographics for their shortcomings...you seem to think one person's experience is moot because it doesn't fit your narrative...one is in control of his own destiny...if he meets adversity there two paths....the lay down and become a "victim" path or the I'm now more determined to succeed path...an individual's attitude is what makes all the difference....
The plural of anecdote is not statistics.
 

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Yeah, we just moved and felt the same way. All the involved agents did a lot of work, were great to deal with, and put up with/ smoothed over a lot of BS, but when you compare to what the lawyers do the commission seemed really excessive. I don't even think the agents are making that much--for a couple reasons I expect most of it goes to the firm. We also sensed pressure to do things we didn't want to do in terms of time frame or budget, and judging from house shopping shows this seems to be the norm, e.g.,--"it's a little over budget but it fits all your criteria and omg the view!"

I'm not even joking, the whole experience has tempted me to start a new kind of real estate firm. I don't have a magic formula, but still, I'm pretty sure that industry is ripe for a shake up much the way transport industry was before Uber and Lyft.
It really is sad/hilarious how little work real estate agents do on the actual home purchase. For our last house, we did not use a buyers agent and I was able to arrange with the seller's agent to keep the 3% commission that would have gone to the seller's agent. The amount of work putting together a proper offer package and arranging inspections/ect. is trivial. The contract is available online and standard in our area with fill in the blank terms. We are are talking 3-4 hours of work total to do all of these things. In the age of the internet, they aren't even doing much actual looking for the buyers- just opening up the lockbox for showing. For that, they get 3% of the purchase price (and regardless of whether it's a $100k home or $10MM home?

As a result, you have this ridiculous dynamic where most realtors spend the vast majority of their time advertising and looking for new clients instead of actually performing the services they are getting paid for. You also have this silly gold rush where a small handful of agents make serious money, and all the rest are just hustling for clients while mostly coming up empty handed. So much deadweight economic loss.

Problem is that the cabal is extremely difficult to break because of the buyer/seller commission structure. FSBO is nearly impossible to pull off unless the market is red hot because seller's agents will steer you away from them. And even if you do pull it off, you are still on the hook for the buyer's agent's 3%. We went with a deep discount seller's agent who charged 1% when we sold our house and we still ended up losing 4% of the sale in fees.
 

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It's called life....it happens....

nobody ever told you it wasn't always fair?!

.....you college boys aren't the only ones facing rough times...

..I didn't go to college

...I also worked very hard to get where I'm at..
...
....life isn't fair!
If you are trying to sound like a walking cliché of one-liners to dismiss the issues that literally MILLIONS of people are having major beef with, you're succeeding.

I think there was a phrase invented to respond to people like you.
 

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We sold our old house by owner (the next-door neighbor wanted it) - it cost $500 for a local real estate attorney to draw up the contract. If you can work out the logistics, I'd recommend it.
 

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It really is sad/hilarious how little work real estate agents do on the actual home purchase. For our last house, we did not use a buyers agent and I was able to arrange with the seller's agent to keep the 3% commission that would have gone to the seller's agent. The amount of work putting together a proper offer package and arranging inspections/ect. is trivial. The contract is available online and standard in our area with fill in the blank terms. We are are talking 3-4 hours of work total to do all of these things. In the age of the internet, they aren't even doing much actual looking for the buyers- just opening up the lockbox for showing. For that, they get 3% of the purchase price (and regardless of whether it's a $100k home or $10MM home?

As a result, you have this ridiculous dynamic where most realtors spend the vast majority of their time advertising and looking for new clients instead of actually performing the services they are getting paid for. You also have this silly gold rush where a small handful of agents make serious money, and all the rest are just hustling for clients while mostly coming up empty handed. So much deadweight economic loss.

Problem is that the cabal is extremely difficult to break because of the buyer/seller commission structure. FSBO is nearly impossible to pull off unless the market is red hot because seller's agents will steer you away from them. And even if you do pull it off, you are still on the hook for the buyer's agent's 3%. We went with a deep discount seller's agent who charged 1% when we sold our house and we still ended up losing 4% of the sale in fees.
I'll buck the trend and say that a good realtor--one who knows the local market inside out, is connected to the community and active--can be worth the fees. My wife and I moved out of our starter home recently. We were able to avoid the whole competitive blind bidding non-sense and get a house at 15% under market value because our realtor had spent his entire life in the community, knew when so-and-so was planning to retire to Florida, and was able to arrange for us to go in before their realtor put it on the market.
 

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For that, they get 3% of the purchase price (and regardless of whether it's a $100k home or $10MM home?
No.

On higher end homes it is generally negotiated in my experience. They will try to tell you it is 3/3, but in reality last time I did it, total was about 1.8%.
 

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I graduated in 2009. Welcome to the real world, BAM, huge recession, no jobs anywhere. Awesome.
Lol me too. I actually signed a job offer in fall 2008, ahead of spring graduation and before the economic fallout was bad. Through some maneuvering on their part the next spring I was effectively laid off before I even started. So I went to grad school! Actually I'm pretty happy to have done that, maybe I should send them a thank you note. :LOL:
 

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I'll buck the trend and say that a good realtor--one who knows the local market inside out, is connected to the community and active--can be worth the fees. My wife and I moved out of our starter home recently. We were able to avoid the whole competitive blind bidding non-sense and get a house at 15% under market value because our realtor had spent his entire life in the community, knew when so-and-so was planning to retire to Florida, and was able to arrange for us to go in before their realtor put it on the market.
Seems like that was good for you but terrible for the sellers. On top of possibly getting 15% or more less than they should have, the realtor probably took at least 3% commission from the seller.
 

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No.

On higher end homes it is generally negotiated in my experience. They will try to tell you it is 3/3, but in reality last time I did it, total was about 1.8%.
Very market dependent. It's not difficult do on one end of the transaction, but hard to do on the other end. Unless it's a red hot market, you won't want to walk away from a good offer or the right house over 1% of the commission.
 

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I'll buck the trend and say that a good realtor--one who knows the local market inside out, is connected to the community and active--can be worth the fees.
Agreed 100%. The realtor for our first house was mediocre at best. We found our first house on our own----she didn't really help any. Oddly, this person was a recommendation from another Car Lounger. Just over a year ago, we moved into our second house and it was a night and day difference. Our house sold in like 3 weeks for way more than I expected and we found our current house after lots of team work on both counts. She did almost all of the heavy listing and given how much traveling I was doing and time consuming the job was, I just didn't have the time to worry about the details myself. Our most recent agent is/was brilliant and very motivated to get things moving on all fronts.
 

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It really is sad/hilarious how little work real estate agents do on the actual home purchase. For our last house, we did not use a buyers agent and I was able to arrange with the seller's agent to keep the 3% commission that would have gone to the seller's agent. The amount of work putting together a proper offer package and arranging inspections/ect. is trivial. The contract is available online and standard in our area with fill in the blank terms. We are are talking 3-4 hours of work total to do all of these things. In the age of the internet, they aren't even doing much actual looking for the buyers- just opening up the lockbox for showing. For that, they get 3% of the purchase price (and regardless of whether it's a $100k home or $10MM home?

As a result, you have this ridiculous dynamic where most realtors spend the vast majority of their time advertising and looking for new clients instead of actually performing the services they are getting paid for. You also have this silly gold rush where a small handful of agents make serious money, and all the rest are just hustling for clients while mostly coming up empty handed. So much deadweight economic loss.
Sorry but as someone that dabbled in real estate for a short period of time, and having watched my mother bust her ass in the field for 25 years, this is BS.

Maybe if you are only setting up inspections and such for one house it is easy. But if you are juggling several active listings at one time - and if you are a good agent you are - it isn't easy at all. My mom in her mid sixties is still working seven days a week. Phone calls start at 7AM and a lot of times don't end until after dinner is done. That doesn't cover answering emails, showings, putting up signs, walking properties, taking pictures, putting together listings, closings and a myriad of other tasks involved.

Yes she gets the percentage whether it is $100k or 10M, but the amount of work for both is similar believe it or not, so it averages out. She might show a $100-200K house several times in a week and a $10M house twice in a month.

And real estate agents are commission only - so you honestly don't expect them to be advertising and looking for clients at all times? I gather you've never had any kind of commissioned sales experience.

These days there are a lot of "part time" realtors. Guess what - you can't be "part time" in this career if you truly want to succeed. You have to dedicate every minute of every day to the job, if not you will find out in short order that you are going to have a really hard time.

I have no doubt that these part timers might not have the attention to detail, but don't disparage a whole group of hard working people because you can supposedly handle their job on your own in 3-4 hours based on one experience.
 
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