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The land of opportunity still exists, as immigrants show us every day, even to this day. If they can do it, why can't our home grown people do it? Is there an attitudinal shift for people born here? I don't know which is why I'm asking.
I have a feeling you're talking about outliers. I grew up with plenty of immigrants that lived in low income 2 bedroom apartments with like 4-6 kids.
 

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Lol. You're full of ****. I have presented plenty of facts, and have not suggested solutions or causes. Just facts.
Your honor, I have provided the fax many times. Please take my fax seriously, I worked very hard finding these fax.
 

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I have a feeling you're talking about outliers. I grew up with plenty of immigrants that lived in low income 2 bedroom apartments with like 4-6 kids.
That's their fault. If they wouldn't have had so many kids they would have been able to become successful board member like me!

/bave
 

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Why is it that immigrants coming to the US have a greater income mobility than bottom quintile native born americans? Do you think it is about systemic favortism towards immigrants? Or do you think it is that immigrants are doing something differently? That right here undermines your entire argument that the system is rigged.
LMFAO. Dude. We poach the BEST from other countries. The bottom quintile of native born americans here are probably not the brightest tacks in the drawer. The fact you think it's just general population immigrating here is hilarious, because even if that were true, 4/5 of them would have a huge head start on the 'bottom quintile' of native born americans. Your critical thinking skills are complete joke.
 

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Back in the day people bought sports cars because they were fast and fun to drive. Nowadays almost everything is fast for the average person and many practical sedans, suv's are just as fun to drive. Just look at the Honda Odyssey, it does 0-60 in 6.5 sec and 14.5 in the 1/4 while hauling the kids to soccer practice.
 

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I think commercial real estate is going to take the biggest hit from COVID. I could see many companies deciding that a hoteling strategy could reduce their space needs by 50%. I just can’t see most businesses going to a straight WFH setup permanently. If you commute 1-2 days a week rather than 5, maybe that greatly reduces your need for a short commute. But there are also other advantages to living close in that I think people will continue to be willing to pay for.
x50,000. I say this despite our company being, without a doubt, more productive when people were in the office. I know many people feel they are more productive (and I don't doubt that), but it's much harder for ideas to be generated and shared, for work to be distributed, and just generally for collaboration to happen. Teamwork is a force multiplier, any increase in individual productivity is more than offset by the amount that has diminished.

Still, we passed on an office expansion pre-COVID and I genuinely feel bad for our neighbor that took it. Work at home may have diminished overall productivity, but disgruntling staff that are convinced work at home works by forcing them to come back full time isn't a viable solution. We don't know how we're going to handle the post-COVID world, but new office space is out of the question entirely, and if it weren't for 10-yr leases we'd probably drop our 1st annex. Fortunately the leases are generally long, otherwise I think we'd see a pretty big vacuum.
 

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Lol. You're full of ****. I have presented plenty of facts, and have not suggested solutions or causes. Just facts.
You really haven't. There isn't a single point piece of data that is going to support either side. Some of the infographics you posted are either grossly out of context or just blatantly misinterpreted by you. For instance, the graphic where you show that more households are no longer making middle class incomes, but you fail to even recognize that your own data suggests that more households have moved up, rather than down, by a factor of two to one. Then you have your constant trope about minimum wage not keeping up with inflation while failing to recognize that less than 2% of wage earners in the US today are minimum wage compared to 15% in 1980. You also fail to take into account the fact that real household income has increased over the last 40 years. I could go on and on, but it is moot, I am trying to explain economics to the guy who doesn't understand anything about the massive student loan he took out, which evidently failed him.

LMFAO. Dude. We poach the BEST from other countries. The bottom quintile of native born americans here are probably not the brightest tacks in the drawer. The fact you think it's just general population immigrating here is hilarious, because even if that were true, 4/5 of them would have a huge head start on the 'bottom quintile' of native born americans. Your critical thinking skills are complete joke.
So let me get this right. You are suggesting that the bottom quintile people in the US are underperforming because they are simply stupid? Yet, you then go on to conclude the problem is systemic. You then go on to critique critical thinking skills of someone else.

No wonder you are struggling.
 

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You should just give up.
Why would I give up? As I've stated multiple times, I am doing above average. You read what I wrote, right? You're not just vomting up generic boomer complaints about younger people, right?

This thread is just full of failures determined to find someone else to blame for their choices in life.
Student loans they shouldn’t have taken out, someone else’s fault, and it should be forgiven. Greater good and all.
When have I suggested complete forgiveness? Why should I have not taken out student loans? They allowed me to pursue a career I am interested in, passionate about, and good at. People are saying that entire generations should not be trapped under 20 years of student loan payments. People are saying interest rates should not be higher than houses or used cars. Why is that so offensive to you? Why, instead of acknowledging real issues, do you resort to strawman arguments?

Poor career paths in stagnant or dying industries, boomers fault for poor trade deals, or something.
My career path is great. Who are you talking about?

Staying in cities with poor wage growth potential, government’s fault for health care costs I guess.
I left the city because I couldnt' afford it, took a job in the middle of nowhere with a lower cost of living and higher salary.

High housing costs, no reason they shouldn’t be able to buy an inexpensive home in a dream city close to downtown. Boomers and nimbys “screwing” them over.
Those inexpensive homes WERE affordable to past generations. Again. FACTS. My dad's house is now worth over a million. I could never afford the lifestyle I grew up in, despite being more educated with more technical skills. This is echoed by the shrinking of hte middle class, and the increase in poverty. These are facts.

Facts > Feelings, boomer.
 

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Facts > Feelings, boomer.
You get really upset that people call you names, and then you do the same thing.

Did you know that just because you say the same thing over and over again it doesn't make it true? I'm not speaking to you directly, but to everyone in this thread. If you state an opinion 200 times it's still an opinion.

The ability to differentiate between facts and opinions seems to be something that many in this thread are struggling with.
 

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You really haven't. There isn't a single point piece of data that is going to support either side. Some of the infographics you posted are either grossly out of context or just blatantly misinterpreted by you. For instance, the graphic where you show that more households are no longer making middle class incomes, but you fail to even recognize that your own data suggests that more households have moved up, rather than down, by a factor of two to one. Then you have your constant trope about minimum wage not keeping up with inflation while failing to recognize that less than 2% of wage earners in the US today are minimum wage compared to 15% in 1980. You also fail to take into account the fact that real household income has increased over the last 40 years. I could go on and on, but it is moot, I am trying to explain economics to the guy who doesn't understand anything about the massive student loan he took out, which evidently failed him.
Lot to unpack:
  • Oh okay all my data is bunk, sure, right, totally
  • Even IF there are more upper middle class, there is still an increase in poverty, and a reduction in middle class. I guess all these articles with tons of references are just works of fiction, by fictional authors!
Fewer millennials in 2019 are middle class compared to baby boomers when they were in their 20s
The middle class lost ground in nearly nine-in-ten U.S. metropolitan areas examined
America's Middle Class Is Losing Ground Financially
I can't wait to hear your mental gymnastics on how this is all fabricated lies and bull****.
-Minimum wage is important. At no point is anyone here suggesting someone work minimum wage and try to raise a family. I did the math pages ago. I was making $5.25/hour 20+ years ago. Gas was $1.25/gallon. Speeding tickets were $75. School was $3k a year. Houses were expensive but not out of reach. Today people get paid $2 more per hour, but gas is $2+/ gallon, speeding tickets are a minimum of $175, and housing is rapidly outpacing inflation. These are issues to young people, these are issues to single people. FACTS>FEELINGS, they are having a rougher go of it than I was. PERIOD. Why hasn't minimum wage been adjusted to keep up with the cost of living? And by living I don't mean renting a nice place or buying a house, I mean LIVING. Look at what I just mentioned: Tickets up 200+%! Gas up 300%+! Houses are up, so much so that the american dream is rapidly shrinking for younger and younger generations, and instead of acknowledging these facts you want to shove your head in the sand and scream at people to work harder and not be poor. Do you realize how delusional and out of touch you are? I think not.
- For the last time, I am not a failure. You keep repeating this boomer BS, and I have no idea why. I am doing above average. Unlike your boomer ass, I empathize with those less fortunate than me, as I am doing a lot better than many of my peers I graduated with.

So let me get this right. You are suggesting that the bottom quintile people in the US are underperforming because they are simply stupid? Yet, you then go on to conclude the problem is systemic. You then go on to critique critical thinking skills of someone else.
On average, probably. If you're a dumbass, and you knockup another dumbass and have dumbass kids when you're 18 and don't parent them correctly, you make more dumbasses. See: Idiocracy. That doesn't mean these people should have a harder life than I did, or my parents did.

No wonder you are struggling.
Last time. Not struggling. I took a decent job making decent money in an area with a low cost of living. Because I am doing well, I do NOT want revolution. When there get to be too many poors, guillotines happen. I don't want guillotines. You seem like the type of dude to just yell everything is fine as the masses are building guillotines, bro.
 

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Lol. You're full of ****. I have presented plenty of facts, and have not suggested solutions or causes. Just facts.
Stop. Just stop. There have been pages and pages with links to empirical studies on this disputing his narrative and he just ploughs forward. It's not worth it.
 

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I love that ADDvanced keeps bringing up the cost of speeding tickets like it's a utility bill.

How often are you getting cited for speeding? At what point would a V1 be a worthwhile investment?
 

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You should just give up. This thread is just full of failures determined to find someone else to blame for their choices in life.
No mention that young people are the least likely to vote of any demographic. Guess what, politicians serve the interests of the people who vote them into office. Seniors double the voter participation rate of young people, and dealt well see their interests addressed.
A lot of the people in this thread who oppose your viewpoint seem to be fairly successful, but they have empathy for those that aren't. Also orange in chief activated an entire generation to care about politics, as evidenced by the election results.

Did you know that just because you say the same thing over and over again it doesn't make it true? I'm not speaking to you directly, but to everyone in this thread. If you state an opinion 200 times it's still an opinion.
This is why I asked why there was still arguing on Thanksgiving, after my argument with bave I realized it was a philosophical difference. Both sides have stats to support them, or can be interpreted as such. Nobody is going to have a philosophical turnaround based on an argument they had in The Car Lounge
 

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- For the last time, I am not a failure. You keep repeating this boomer BS, and I have no idea why. I am doing above average. Unlike your boomer ass, I empathize with those less fortunate than me, as I am doing a lot better than many of my peers I graduated with.
And it's sad that he cannot comprehend that. In his myopic view, if you voice complaints, you are a failure. My household income puts me into the top 1% of Canadians. I'm very comfortable and by all accounts extremely successful. That doesn't mean that I cannot see how hard it has been for my peers and how there will be no future for subsequent generations if we continue on this trajectory.
 

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Lot to unpack:
  • Oh okay all my data is bunk, sure, right, totally
  • Even IF there are more upper middle class, there is still an increase in poverty, and a reduction in middle class. I guess all these articles with tons of references are just works of fiction, by fictional authors!
Yes, there is a reduction in middle class households, but that reduction is primarily because most of them are moving up, not down, and you view this as a problem.

The fundamental problem is that your comparison is against a unicorn. The era of the 50's and 60's isn't going to repeat itself, so looking back at that era as the standard is unrealistic. At that time global labor pools were largely stuck closed, industrial output around the globe was a fraction of that of America's. So of course unskilled and low skilled labor was going to do extremely well and thus a middle class would be incredibly strong. That isn't something that is repeatable at this point, unless you have a plan on how to accomplish that? Further, you then have the question of whether or not Americans even want those jobs back in large enough quantity to drive an economy.

I can't wait to hear your mental gymnastics on how this is all fabricated lies and bull****.
Those aren't lies, they are just framed in poor context.

-Minimum wage is important. At no point is anyone here suggesting someone work minimum wage and try to raise a family. I did the math pages ago. I was making $5.25/hour 20+ years ago. Gas was $1.25/gallon. Speeding tickets were $75. School was $3k a year. Houses were expensive but not out of reach. Today people get paid $2 more per hour, but gas is $2+/ gallon, speeding tickets are a minimum of $175, and housing is rapidly outpacing inflation. These are issues to young people, these are issues to single people. FACTS>FEELINGS, they are having a rougher go of it than I was. PERIOD. Why hasn't minimum wage been adjusted to keep up with the cost of living? And by living I don't mean renting a nice place or buying a house, I mean LIVING. Look at what I just mentioned: Tickets up 200+%! Gas up 300%+!
Again, the data doesn't support this. Go grab the BLS database and dig in. Real median household wages are up over the last 40 years. Though, I am not sure they use speeding tickets as part of their basket of measured goods and services, but no one serious ever would. Further, you continue to ignore the fact that minimum wage is irrelevant in the context you are trying to use it. In 1980 ~15% of labor was earning minimum wage. Now it is ~2%, of which almost all of it is tipped. So why do you insist on bringing up minimum wage when in reality that isn't what people are being paid today and the real metric is median household income, which is why BLS measures that and not your "speeding ticket to minimum wage" horse****.

Houses are up, so much so that the american dream is rapidly shrinking for younger and younger generations, and instead of acknowledging these facts you want to shove your head in the sand and scream at people to work harder and not be poor. Do you realize how delusional and out of touch you are? I think not.
You continue to ignore what everyone here is trying to tell you. The price of a house is up, the cost of a house isn't really. Why? The cost is generally calculated as the cost to carry something, ie: borrow and float the interest. When interest rates are 3% today as compared to 19% in 1981, it makes it a lot easier for afford a $400k house today, even compared to a $100k house then. Do the math. The the real point, housing price growth is heavily variable. In major desirable metros it is way up. In Detroit it is way down.

- For the last time, I am not a failure. You keep repeating this boomer BS, and I have no idea why. I am doing above average. Unlike your boomer ass, I empathize with those less fortunate than me, as I am doing a lot better than many of my peers I graduated with.
I was born in the 70's, do the math... again, not a boomer.

On average, probably. If you're a dumbass, and you knockup another dumbass and have dumbass kids when you're 18 and don't parent them correctly, you make more dumbasses. See: Idiocracy. That doesn't mean these people should have a harder life than I did, or my parents did.
Ok, so are poor people poor because of the system or because of their choices and genetics? You seem to be making my point for me, unintentionally as always.
 

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Who's going to fund all these fetal collective bargaining sessions?
Well we’ve already established that the sun is a lazy good for nothing just like his father, so it’s gotta be someone other than Mr Two Scoops of raisins.

Maybe Mr Three Refrigerators?
 
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