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Is anyone running this on a VR? I'm thinking of some alternatives to FI and I'd like to see what's out there. Anyone experiment with this?
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (vertigobora)

I'm not sure how well this would work with the different lenght intake runners that you normally have, it certainly might be possible, but I think it would require some work.
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (vertigobora)

Yes, there are cars out there running these... you will find some pictures of mainly euro cars running this set up. Hayward Performance was going to be making a set fully equipped w/ DTA managment but has since backed out or the project is on a long term hold. TWM Induction makes 16V set ups, I think thier website claims that something is "coming soon" for the VR6 but has been like that for quite sometime. Then there is Grant Motorsport in Germany (?) that has these and run them but I can never get any info about them.
The bummer is I think most of the cars that you see in PVW or The Golf that have ITB's are done up for show, I have never seen dyno tuning numbers or real time track +/- performance to back them up. Usually you find them just all chrome polished up sitting there looking pretty w/ goofy smiley face balls stuffed in them. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
Bill
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (billyVR6)

Damn show cars

I dont think you would get outstanding performance, but threottle response would be fenominal. The intake plenum can be designed to allow it to still have low end power, but it would take some good engineering and ECU tuning (SEM would be preferable).
The thing is for most people it would not be worth the money. If I had another daily driver I could use, I would really like to do some testing on the VR6, and make some one off stuff. It would not be incredibly difficult to physically build them, since the TB's are out there. Fitting it under the hood is a concern. PLenum design can be CF, which is not a big deal. And as I am learning the new TEcIII this year, it would be pretty solid with a system as adjustable as the new electromotive. I would say on a 3.1L built engine with ITB, SEM, 240whp or so is possible for sure witout going crazy as far as compression goes. But a project like this would be an easy $3500 just in part. As far as the parts I can probably fabricate them for next to nothing here at school and the quality would be outstanding. However theres also the risk of doing harm to the engine, which I cant take a chance with on my DD.
I would recommend some people who are exprienced with either fabrication, engine building, or engine tuning to pickup a used VR6 and start developing some stuff. You can probably adapt throttle cable systems from other cars, and get some TB's from various locations.
The VR6 is really a great engine, and VW has to build a real sports car to utilize it. With the 24V vr6 out now and the R32 engine, its getting there, but they need to take the route honda took and build a real sports car like the s2000. Have it RWd and a more developed chassis/suspension. I'm sure they can make some sick stuff, they just need the market for it, and can see they would profit.
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (GTIVR6RACER4EVER)

quote:[HR][/HR]I dont think you would get outstanding performance, [HR][/HR]​
What makes you think that? Some of the 16v cars with them are getting about 40 more whp then w/o them, is that not outstanding?
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (MikeBlaze)

First of all thats not a VR6
Also those have been around a while, and are engineered already, built already with R&D. The VR6 would need a good amount of testing with plenum design, TB size, runner legnths, etc. Also from the pics i have seen they are cramped VERY tight, and I dont think I have seen any with developed plenums, just show cars with either Barrel plenums, or nothing. I am sure we could figure out how to fit the TB's and plenum in there, but you would have problems with getting the right runn legnth, as theres not much room.
also my definition for "Oustanding" when you are probably going to spend, no doubt, well in the thousands for a project like this would be somewhere close to a stage I S/C setup. I would say with SEM alone tuned properly you can get the standard "Bolt on" VR6 (cams, headerback, etc) to 185whp. With ITB I would hope you could see about 205whp. With headwork, 3.1L, again proper tuning is key, Lighter internals, etc... I would say 230whp is possible (without running crazy compression). That coupled with a close ratio 6spd gearbox, with LSD would be one nice machine, however it would be a $7.5-10K engine. And unless you are just out to show what the VR6 can do, its not money well spent in my mind. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Oh yea I'll call grant motorsport if you want this week to help you guys out in collecting info on thier ITB system. I'll let you know what I find out.


[Modified by GTIVR6RACER4EVER, 1:20 PM 1-26-2003]
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (GTIVR6RACER4EVER)

He's right, spend that money on a turbo kit for a much better dollar-to-horsepower value!!
As far as linkages go, you could prolly use the setup from a canadian bmw 330i, which has a 6-cylinder w/itb's stock....
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (nuugen)

TWM- talked to those guys a few times, they never had any plans on doing a ITB set up on a VR6, they were cluesless about the engine setup and didn't even realize it was an inline 6 having all the intakes on one side. I was very dissapointed in them.
Hayward Performance- Lance was working on a set up but since only two people inquired about it, Bernd and myself, he has decided to put it on the back burner for now unless he gets more interest in them.
Awesome GTi- England, had a VR6 running around with ITB's a few years ago running Weber alpha injection. I talked to them personally and they did not want to get into details about it and said it was not something they would do again and did not know what happened to the old one. they directed me to another company badger5 performance and I am still trying to work something out.
It the mean time, I have a few ideas Billy and I have been bouncing off each other and we will see if we can actually put something together. If it all works out there should be some big gains that will work with stock management.
Anthony
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (95GLX)

oh yeah, either way with the ITB's, you will spend around $4,000 or more to get it set up then you have to add management as well. very expensive and yes, turbo is an easier way to go.
Anthony
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (95GLX)

quote:[HR][/HR]It the mean time, I have a few ideas Billy and I have been bouncing off each other and we will see if we can actually put something together. If it all works out there should be some big gains that will work with stock management.[HR][/HR]​
sssshhhhhhhhh, keep it quite!

Yeah, all you people just hold your horses and see what we pull out of our sleeve, it kicks butt. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Bill
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (billyVR6)

Yea, that was around what i estimated to do this project including R&D prototype costs, it would be around $5K plus ECU stuff. I guess it would work with Stock ecu, but you could better tune it and have more ajdustments via SEM system. As we are going over our new TecIII more and more we see it really is a ig improvement over the TecII.
Eitherway, this is an awesome project and I wish I had time and an extra engine to do some testing. You can have a base manifold plate waterjetted in no time, make a bracket to attach BMW style inline TB's, and make a mold for the plenum. Only problem I see is not having enough space. And the TB's themselves will cost a pretty penny as well.
This is really something I would like to see done right already, and noone else I would to see do this setup then the dirty jerzey Boys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Let me know if I can help in anyway, I have access to all the newest machines, I can draw whatever you need in cad and have it rapid prototyped in no time, and also have access to alot of 600cc Street bike TB's, which would be a nice size for the VR6.
Billy knows my contact info if I can help in anyway.
Later
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (95GLX)

Honestly, I think the easiest way to run them is to get readily available ITB's (Badger, Puma, TWM) and just get a short runner adapter manifold made for them. The hardest part is getting the oval ports blended into a circular outlet at the TB end but it's doable. We just have to find a really good fabricator that could put some time in and make a few. Still, it's going to be a few $$. My $.02
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (95GLX)

That was the peach rabbit, it now has a vr mani in there

I am very interested in itb's, to go w/my turbo setup--well just weighing the pro's/cons actually...There is a shop in Cleveland that fabricates itb setups for mitsu's, he told me to stop by and we will take a look at the situation http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


[Modified by nuugen, 11:47 PM 1-26-2003]
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (need_a_VR6)

As far as help goes, I think as long as we can keep all our eggs in one basket we should be able to come up with something we can all use. Unless you have super big pockets this is not something just one of us can handle.
Room is the biggest factor. I looked at adapting the BMW set up, just to get that alone is over $5,000, is it really worth it.
We could use someone with drafting experience to get some drawings done, I have so many ideas but putting them on paper is not my forté.
Anthony
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (95GLX)

Jeez, 5g to adapt a BMW setup is nuts! I can see fitment problems with the top of the alternator, hood and top of the rad depending on how far they're sticking out.
Honestly, the best thing would be a cast piece, rather than a welded one. I don't think we could really get the port shapes we need without major headache to a fabricator. Just a thought.
How detailed drawings are you looking for, I have a decent amount of Autocad experience, but all my recent stuff is in 2D. We really need is someone that's good at ProE. Takers?
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (need_a_VR6)

I am pretty good at Solidworks (2001+ the newest one). But I dont really have time with Crunch time coming up in Forrmula SAE. Its a pretty simpledraewing though. Since all th TB's are the same, you just have to have one drawn, and its easy to get BMW TB's in 3d, they are online all over the place. Here is some of my work just to show what I have done. (this was something I did while learning the program, so I never rendered it, but its decent for not knowing the program)

And this is an intake I am working on for an E46 M3
I got a couple more real complex drawings, for our Fsae car, but I cant post those, sorry.


[Modified by GTIVR6RACER4EVER, 9:23 AM 1-27-2003]
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (GTIVR6RACER4EVER)

quote:[HR][/HR]I got a couple more real complex drawings, for our Fsae car, but I cant post those, sorry.[HR][/HR]​
Aw, come on, I promise not to steal them for my old team

The one thing that we might want to watch in the design, is that I *think* the VR6 has equal volume runners through the lower intake manifold to try and make everything all even and happy. I sold my lower manny to Marc before I could go an cc it to prove this though. If you have or could get me a spare lower, I'd be glad to sit down and see what I come up with. If it does turn out that the lower runners are volume matched, it makes a *really* good argument for a nice cast piece. It would be near impossible without some SERIOUSLY good design to get equal volumes out of a welded piece. Just some thoughts
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (GTIVR6RACER4EVER)

Nice drawings. I work with ProEngineer all day long designing packaging, and I have some experience using it for engineering. ProE costs way the hell more than SolidWorks, but I think it's a little easier to grasp and more versatile.
I can model anything that is drawn in 2D. I'd show you some of my work, but it's almost all proprietary, and after signing a NDA, I'd be sued.
 

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Re: Individual throttle bodies. (need_a_VR6)

quote:[HR][/HR]It would be near impossible without some SERIOUSLY good design to get equal volumes out of a welded piece. Just some thoughts
[HR][/HR]​
Paul, I swear we got this part covered... I am going to try and finish my basic rough 3D drawings tonight or tomorrow so Anthony can visualize what the hell I have been talking about for the past month or so.
quote:[HR][/HR]This is really something I would like to see done right already, and noone else I would to see do this setup then the dirty jerzey Boys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[HR][/HR]​
That's funny... I am from PA and Anthony is from MD, where the hell did Jersey come from?
Bill
 
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