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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
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With the Paris Auto Show just a few weeks away, rumors have begun to swirl surrounding Audi’s planned showpieces. Alternating every other year with Frankfurt, these two auto shows are THE major European events opposite the calendar with Geneva. Thus far the only confirmed reveal from Ingolstadt is the Audi A7 and that car was already shown in person at and event in Munich last month. Given Audi is normally good for 1-3 model reveals and often a concept at a major auto show, it’s no surprise that theories on the concept (we’ve read R4 e-tron Roadster on one site) or production cars (we’ve read S1 on another site) are surfacing. We’ve begun pressing sources for some insight on what else might be see and we’ve received one answer we hadn’t heard before… the S7.

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I understand your thinking about the choice of engine for the S7, but it wouldn't surprise me to see it carry on the V10 (even in an updated form) while the S6 would get the all-new 4.0T FSI. It would mirror the image that exists between the S5 (still a 4.2L for the hardtop) and the S4 (the new 3.0T FSI).
 

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It would be helpful to have a better understanding of Audi's engine roadmap. I would imagine this is something being affected by planning across the entire group. We have now seen the 3.0T FSI becoming a ubiquitous engine, available in several states of tune. Unfortunately with the A7, in the lowest state of tune, but probably the most economical. And also being used by both Porsche and VW. Audi have yet to release this engine in its full power guise, which they showed in the Q5 concept at Wörthersee a year or so back. Dual air intakes, no boost bleed-off at higher revs, and 413bhp from wherever Audi are actually measuring power.

The A7 was launched with the base 6 cylinder engines first, the opposite of the A8 launch. They need V8 engines in their standard range, given where the A7 sits in the model hierarchy. Hopefully, in Europe at least, this will include the 4.2 TDI, which is a fabulous, albeit heavy, engine.

The 4.0T FSI obviously lends itself to being ramped up to various states of tune, which the current 4.2 FSI does not. But they will need to start high, given the output of BMW's 4.4TT, and the even higher output of the new Mercedes 4.8 turbo engine which is being released at the end of the year.

Not sure that the V10 would fit in this future direction of streamlining a base engine platform - too limited in application, expensive, heavy, and inefficient. Everything Audi are doing at the moment seems to be towards reducing weight. By example, they have reduced the weight of the 3.0 TDI to the same as the T FSI engine. Very admirable, but none of the current reviews bothered to note that. Bad luck the torque output is not competitive at 500Nm, less than the 550Nm in A8, and much less than the 620Nm in the latest Mercedes 350 CDI, that will be used in the impending Mercedes CLS.

I think the A7 is a superb design, but for the premium being asked, the engines have to at least be competitive for me to buy it.
 

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It would be helpful to have a better understanding of Audi's engine roadmap. I would imagine this is something being affected by planning across the entire group. We have now seen the 3.0T FSI becoming a ubiquitous engine, available in several states of tune. Unfortunately with the A7, in the lowest state of tune, but probably the most economical. And also being used by both Porsche and VW. Audi have yet to release this engine in its full power guise, which they showed in the Q5 concept at Wörthersee a year or so back. Dual air intakes, no boost bleed-off at higher revs, and 413bhp from wherever Audi are actually measuring power.

The A7 was launched with the base 6 cylinder engines first, the opposite of the A8 launch. They need V8 engines in their standard range, given where the A7 sits in the model hierarchy. Hopefully, in Europe at least, this will include the 4.2 TDI, which is a fabulous, albeit heavy, engine.

The 4.0T FSI obviously lends itself to being ramped up to various states of tune, which the current 4.2 FSI does not. But they will need to start high, given the output of BMW's 4.4TT, and the even higher output of the new Mercedes 4.8 turbo engine which is being released at the end of the year.

Not sure that the V10 would fit in this future direction of streamlining a base engine platform - too limited in application, expensive, heavy, and inefficient. Everything Audi are doing at the moment seems to be towards reducing weight. By example, they have reduced the weight of the 3.0 TDI to the same as the T FSI engine. Very admirable, but none of the current reviews bothered to note that. Bad luck the torque output is not competitive at 500Nm, less than the 550Nm in A8, and much less than the 620Nm in the latest Mercedes 350 CDI, that will be used in the impending Mercedes CLS.

I think the A7 is a superb design, but for the premium being asked, the engines have to at least be competitive for me to buy it.
Firstly, I would've said hi if I had just registered in...
Secondly,
nice observation but you've got few things wrong.
3.0tfsi in its lowest state of tuning (272ps) has just replaced the 3.6fsi in Q7. A7, yes, gets the one with 300ps, and that is still more than its brother in a new A8 (290ps).
New, soon-to-be-unveiled, 4.0tfsi (in S7-S6) according to the latest reports will get 408ps and that's still good specific output for that engine and a way more than mentioned 4.4tt from BMW (in 750i, 550i, 550gt) and a lot more than Merc's 4.7l twin turbo output which is to me a disappointment.
What will future bring from 4.0tfsi is to be seen (it's reported 500ps in a new S8) and for sure it won't be something to be ashamed of in any respect! on the contrary...
:thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It would be helpful to have a better understanding of Audi's engine roadmap. I would imagine this is something being affected by planning across the entire group. We have now seen the 3.0T FSI becoming a ubiquitous engine, available in several states of tune. Unfortunately with the A7, in the lowest state of tune, but probably the most economical. And also being used by both Porsche and VW. Audi have yet to release this engine in its full power guise, which they showed in the Q5 concept at Wörthersee a year or so back. Dual air intakes, no boost bleed-off at higher revs, and 413bhp from wherever Audi are actually measuring power.

The A7 was launched with the base 6 cylinder engines first, the opposite of the A8 launch. They need V8 engines in their standard range, given where the A7 sits in the model hierarchy. Hopefully, in Europe at least, this will include the 4.2 TDI, which is a fabulous, albeit heavy, engine.

The 4.0T FSI obviously lends itself to being ramped up to various states of tune, which the current 4.2 FSI does not. But they will need to start high, given the output of BMW's 4.4TT, and the even higher output of the new Mercedes 4.8 turbo engine which is being released at the end of the year.

Not sure that the V10 would fit in this future direction of streamlining a base engine platform - too limited in application, expensive, heavy, and inefficient. Everything Audi are doing at the moment seems to be towards reducing weight. By example, they have reduced the weight of the 3.0 TDI to the same as the T FSI engine. Very admirable, but none of the current reviews bothered to note that. Bad luck the torque output is not competitive at 500Nm, less than the 550Nm in A8, and much less than the 620Nm in the latest Mercedes 350 CDI, that will be used in the impending Mercedes CLS.

I think the A7 is a superb design, but for the premium being asked, the engines have to at least be competitive for me to buy it.
This is a VERY astute observation so I won't give you any crap for not saying hi. No need to double up on that. Welcome to the site.

It's important to think about strategy and someone inside once told me that if you look at the Mercedes example of building their 6.3 and putting it it seems in every AMG known to God makes a lot of sense.

From what I can tell, the 4.0T in various guises will likely roll in as replacement to the 4.2 and allow the 3.0T breathing room since that engine already has nearly 4.2 power (not counting R8, RS 4 and RS 5). I wouldn't be surprised to see it eventually replace all 4.2s and likely all 5.2s.

IMHO the 4.2 and 5.2 are outgoing and I'm not aware of Audi's intention to further develop either motor. The V10 is super cool but there simply isn't a business case to develop it for say... just the S7. Where else would it or could it be used?... maybe Panamera... again, that's niche. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Audi streamline on the top end at least.
 

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This is a VERY astute observation so I won't give you any crap for not saying hi. No need to double up on that. Welcome to the site.

It's important to think about strategy and someone inside once told me that if you look at the Mercedes example of building their 6.3 and putting it it seems in every AMG known to God makes a lot of sense.

From what I can tell, the 4.0T in various guises will likely roll in as replacement to the 4.2 and allow the 3.0T breathing room since that engine already has nearly 4.2 power (not counting R8, RS 4 and RS 5). I wouldn't be surprised to see it eventually replace all 4.2s and likely all 5.2s.

IMHO the 4.2 and 5.2 are outgoing and I'm not aware of Audi's intention to further develop either motor. The V10 is super cool but there simply isn't a business case to develop it for say... just the S7. Where else would it or could it be used?... maybe Panamera... again, that's niche. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Audi streamline on the top end at least.
It is still very early days, but wouldn't be surprised if VAG kept some sort of unique engine (maybe n/a V10) for applications in pure bred sports cars, as next R8 and the replacement of Galiardo would be... And to keep various iterations of that 4.0tfsi just for ''normal'' cars! Makes perfect sense IMO...
 

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Hi :eek:

I apologise for failing to observe protocol. I can offer 2 excuses, I am somewhat naive when it comes to forum behaviour, and I was somewhat frustrated when I posted. And thank you for your welcome George, and forgiving my trespasses.

I should have qualified my comments by informing that I currently own an A6 3.0 TDI Quattro S/Line 6sp manual, and my wife drives an S5 cabriolet. I am in the throws of replacing the A6, and the A7 is a serious contender.

So I already have a 3.0 TDI and a 3.0T FSI in the stable, so to speak. I see a real step forward with the A7 in terms of design, in terms of chassis development via the revised Quattro system, yet they have released it with engines that offer no progress.

The diesel is the same output as that in the A6, and less than the version in the A8. I'm looking at torque, because that's more important. The 3.0T FSI is in a low state of tune - I did not realize that an even lower tune had been produced for the Q7, but as QUATTR0 pointed out, the Q7 also has the 333HP version available.

Whilst the 0-100kph/62mph time of 5.6 seconds is hardly slow for the 3.0T FSI, my concern with this tune is driving characteristics. As anyone who owns or has driven the 333hp version of this engine with the s/tronic gearbox will know, applying full throttle from a constant speed will result in the gearbox changing down to a gear that provides around 5500rpm. However, the ECU is bleeding off supercharger boost at this rpm range, and both power and torque start falling off a cliff approaching redline. The result is the engine screams for 2 or 3 seconds as it climbs to redline, with little acceleration, until it changes up a gear and therefore into its optimum powerband. Of course, you learn to drive around this by either changing manually or flicking the accelerator down halfway so it will kick down one gear less.

Obviously Audi design and develop the engine, and associated drivetrain components, to its peak output. They then reverse engineer, or de-tune, performance by limiting boost, adjusting fuel maps, etc. However, the S/tronic box still behaves like it is expecting an engine that is still climbing towards 413hp at 6500rpm.

I would expect this problem will to be even more pronounced in the 300hp version. Whilst I enjoyed reading Stu's drive report from Sardinia, he didn't have the opportunity to comment much on the driving characteristics. However, I have read one report from Sardinia which indicated that this kickdown behaviour is still present. Not a problem for the US though, with the ZF 8 speed automatic, which I have driven in the A8 and it is an excellent gearbox.

The A7 is premium priced, and in my view deserved a better engine option at launch. I am sure the 4.0T FSI will be an excellent engine, and I already know the 4.2 TDI is. But I was told yesterday by my dealer that there will be no further engine options until mid-way through next year, and the S7 will not be available for sale before then either. He also told me that the 3rd seat belt option, which was going to happen December this year, is being held over for 12 months.

Dommage!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I was just kidding on the saying hi part. I'm guessing you know that but I won't let it go unsaid.

As for the engine on the S-tronic, I was unaware. I'll have to try that next time I'm in an S4 which is the only car we get with that pairing for the USA.

It almost seems as if Audi is simplifying its engine ranges in Europe similar to what it does in the USA. Perhaps not as extensively, simplification likely brings costs into line.

As for the boost, it will be interesting to see where the aftermarket goes. MTM offers something, APR will have something here in a few weeks. I wonder how this will effect performance as they likely won't be bleeding off boost. As far as I know the various versions of 3.0T are mechanically identical and only differ based on ECU tune.
 

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Thanks for your comments, George. The number of engine options doesn't seem to be decreasing, but the number of unique engine platforms is. Of course, in Europe, all the model range includes plenty of diesel variants which you don't see in the US.

What sometimes gets overlooked is that capacities, power outputs, and emission targets are a function of an increasingly complex mix of local and regional tax hurdles.

The main European Audi tuners, who are Abt, MTM and Sportec, have had their chip solutions available almost from when the S4 was first released. They all use the same piggy back hardware, as getting into the ECU itself is a big no-no with Audi. In my country, the Audi dealer also carries Abt and there is no affect on warranty. But the price is high.

These have all been tested in the German print media, by Auto Bild and Auto Zeitung at least. Neither who had any difficulties observing the differences compared to a standard S4. Unlike a recent thread in a US forum concerning MTM, which seemed to me more like an advertising piece for the US tuner you mentioned. These tests confirm your thought that all these tunes are focussed on maintaining boost to nearer the red-line. So the biggest impact comes at higher speed - of more relevance to Germany than anywhere else, where a 0-200kph time is of more interest than a 0-100kph.

The Auto Zeitung review of the Abt S4 mentioned the S-tronic was a bit slow to kick down and then get back on the power band, and Auto Bild did not like this delay either when they comparison tested the Abt and Sportec versions. So it seems to be a function of the S-tronic gearbox.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the info. I expect our own S4 will have an ECU flash in about two weeks and will make sure to post our impressions on that. It's a manual though.
 
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