Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS

37391 Views 66 Replies 25 Participants Last post by Kimdongpoonn, Oct 22, 2019

TBerk

Discussion Starter · Jul 10, 2002 (Edited)

Append: It's been 14 years since I began this thread. At the time I had a 1981 Scirocco (California) and a Donor 85 GTI. And a couple of Bentley, Haynes, and Muir Press Repair Manuals.

I still have the Manuals.

It's been discussed that my published diagram is in error, and I believe that might be right, but I'm not going to pull down this first post-

What I hope to do is to go back over the new info gathered over the years, the suggestions & replies and see why I thought it was a good idea in the first place.

I'd like to put up a better, new-and-improved picture/schematic next to the first one.

On thing to remember during this revision, some decade and a half down the road: I put this on the Interwebz asking for review, and by inference, feedback.

Last thing for now, as the guy who got this thread started, I take responsibility in not maintaining it, even over such a span of time. Sorry about that.

TBerk - Nov 2016

-------------------------------------
Here is my latest schematic, it corrects some typos I made last time:
btw- Your wiring's colors wil no doubt be way different based on country of assembly, year, model, etc.
(Don't fry anything, this is provided purely as informational, I don't warranty you screwing it up.)
btw- I am using the Distributor from the RD, vacum advance line from old Dist moves to K/S box.
RE: Later in the thread MrDave mentions some Diags from the Bentley- That would be Pin #4 on the K/S controler. tb
(edited 27Aug09 to fix link, better version to follow...)

Anybody want to channel Dr. Frankenstein with me?
'tanks,
TBerk

[Modified by TBerk, 12:14 PM 7-10-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:17 PM 7-10-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:04 AM 7-19-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:07 AM 7-19-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 08:44 PM 7-28-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 03:16 PM 8-09-2002]
Modified by TBerk at 1:22 AM 11-21-2004
Modified by TBerk at 1:25 AM 11-21-2004
27Aug09 AM - Working on fixing linkies...
Modified by TBerk at 12:32 PM 8-27-2009

Modified by TBerk at 5:56 PM 8-27-2009

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1 - 20 of 67 Posts

ABA Scirocco

· #2 · Jul 10, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

In my application I'm not using pins 1,2,4,11, works great. Also, I checked my Bentley and on the 16v Sciroccos pin 1,4,11 are not connected. BTW, 81's had ECU's?? must be an American thing, none of the Canadian ones did.

TBerk

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jul 10, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (ABA Scirocco)

- No 11 huh? Looks like a real good grounding point.

I'll post a pic tommorrow with what I come up with.
Thx,
TBerk

vwpat

· #4 · Jul 10, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

quote:[HR][/HR]
- No 11 huh? Looks like a real good grounding point.

I'll post a pic tommorrow with what I come up with.
Thx,
TBerk[HR][/HR]

Grounding 11 gives you the milder 85 map versus the more aggressive 86+ map.

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ABA Scirocco

· #5 · Jul 10, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (vwpat)

VWPat is right, I did a fair bit of research before I installed a K-S system on my car, all VW's from 86 on came from the factory with pin 11 not connected.

TBerk

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jul 10, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (ABA Scirocco)

OK, I looked over everything and I find:
- Harness plug on KS module end has NO 1, 4, nor 11 terminals. These won't be connected at all.
- My CIS had the DIS (Digital Idle Stabalizer inline with the Ignition ECU, now of the three wires from Hall Sensor to ECU, only one wire is used (vs all three). Looks like DIS gets 'obsoleted'.
- OR I place it forward of the KS, but I have never had anyone mention using it. Looks like no DIS, besides the 86 lived without one. (Obsessing partly because this is a California car, going to have to pass smog ref review.)
I'm reworking the color schematic to reflect my current loom, check back this afternoon.
Thx so far,
TBerk

TBerk

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jul 14, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

Soooo,
Latest report is I find a (50) conveniently located on the starter, powering the solenoid, Considering it's all 12 volts no matter where I get it from and terminal (50)* is what I want to run KS pin #10
*(It's only on during cranking.)
Also Pin #3 on the K/S box is grounded but doesn't run to 11 like some other (stock) looms do, so I'm using it.
Here’s the quick wap up:
KS module pin #5 gets (15) - power when Ign is ON.
KS module pin #2 was hooked to the O2 computer in the former car, I left it free.
KS module pin #3 is grounded
KS module pins #13 & 14 come from the K/S sensor
KS module pin #7 & 9 from the Hall Sender
KS module pin #6 & 8 goes to the full throttle switch,
(the closed switch is unused right now.)
KS module pin #12 goes to the Ign module #5
The standard 1981 electronic ignition has a digital idle stabilizer in line with the hall sender & ignition module. In this set up the three signal wires on the Ign Mod are reduce to one running to the KS mod, the hall sender runs all three of it’s wires directly to the KS module. Looks like the DIS is out of the picture. (Maybe if I knew what id did better I’d make use of the closed throttle switch to do something with it.)
I'm still looking for some vinyl tubing to run the loom in, otherwise I'm wrapping it in pipe tape (that’s not the right name but it's 2" wide).
I want to avoid the split loom corrugated stuff as much as possible, and provide for high heat, oil, etc exposure as well.
BTW- As much help as I have gotten from folks’ web pages I think they still lack something. (I sound ungrateful. but quite the opposite is true.)
TBerk

[Modified by TBerk, 12:03 AM 7-19-2002]

[Modified by TBerk, 12:07 AM 7-19-2002]

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TBerk

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jul 19, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

Bumped for review.
TBerk

vwpat

· #9 · Jul 19, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

3 only runs to 11 on the 85 harness.

theuean

· #10 · Jul 19, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

[my post from the 8v forum]
Wow man, thanks *right click, save* I was just about to post about this!!!
To clarify, the electronic ignition module is in the rain tray on driver's side, correct? Where is the throttle valve switch? (full throttle/WOT switch??) And what exactly do you mean by "tie in" with the power? Thanks man... I don't have too much experience with wiring but I'm not afraid either. Scary combination

[/my post from 8v forum]
This is a little weird for me as I have an 84gti and from what I'm seeing, colours aren't exactly the same. Do you (or anyone else) know if it's pretty much the same deal here?
-Sean

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audioteknik

· #11 · Jul 20, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (Speedemon)

AWESOME post guys!! You've all done your homework and great job to that. My friend has a K-S only system with euro 16v cis injection on a 2L bottom w/ a 1.8L 16v head in a '81 pickup that runs low 14's consistantly and is "basically" what you'd call stock... well, NOT really! HA! Just wanted to thank all for the info.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

audioteknik

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3

TBerk

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jul 20, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (Speedemon)

(Thx, btw- It still needs some revision. I'll prob post a page to show the nuts and bolts part of the install.)

quote:[HR][/HR][my post from the 8v forum]
Wow man, thanks *right click, save* I was just about to post about this!!!
[HR][/HR]

No prob, Bob. That's what we're here for.

quote:[HR][/HR]
To clarify, the electronic ignition module is in the rain tray on driver's side, correct?
[HR][/HR]

Yep, My 1981 Scirocco has the Ign module on the transaxle side of the car, up in the rain tray. I found lots of room on the other side of the car, up in the rain tray. ANd of course the existing O2 sensor box is retained in it's stock location: Under the dash on the passengers side, inside the car. There is a nice stock tray there to accomodate it.
I might just secure the K/S box there to.

quote:[HR][/HR]
Where is the throttle valve switch? (full throttle/WOT switch??) And what exactly do you mean by "tie in" with the power? Thanks man... I don't have too much experience with wiring but I'm not afraid either. Scary combination

[HR][/HR]

"Tie In" means the same as splice, attach to, get power from the same 'circuit track' that other well known items run on- 15 = power when Ign ON, 30 = Power straight from battery (maybe fused but still; always ON), etc.
The WOT switch is used on 84 GTI and up type motors. I got mine from the donor car. Helps to prevent running lean when you have the pedal mashed down. Bonus and easy because the A2 throttle is larger inside diameter so I modified my Intake manifold to fit. In my case it's on top of the throtle itself. There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.

quote:[HR][/HR]
[/my post from 8v forum]
This is a little weird for me as I have an 84gti and from what I'm seeing, colours aren't exactly the same. Do you (or anyone else) know if it's pretty much the same deal here?
-Sean[HR][/HR]

You'll need a Bentley manual, with it's schematics & the schematics from the donor car. I have found Haynes useful but not as good, better to have both.
Also, some cars came with the next year's wire colors, like Scirocco shows up in the book with the next year's Cabby wire colors. Be adaptable.
TBerk

[Modified by TBerk, 1:31 AM 7-20-2002]

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2

J. Daniel

· #13 · Jul 20, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

quote:[HR][/HR](There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.
[HR][/HR]

The Throttle closed switch tells the KS control not to look at manifold vacuum while idling. Gives it a nice stable ignition setting for a consistent idle speed.
Not having this switch hooked up means you will have to set the ignition advance with the vacuum line disconnected (so you have the correct advance at WOT), then connect the vacuum line, then reset idle speed down since the ignition will advance quite a bit with the line connected.
I'd recommend using the switch.
Note for Sean: The Bentley for Rabbit/Scirocco up to 84 only applies to the early 84 Sciroccos. So, if you have an 84 1/2 Scirocco (small spare tire) then you need the later Bentley. I have the same problem.

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TBerk

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jul 20, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (J. Daniel)

quote:[HR][/HR](There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.
The Throttle closed switch tells the KS control not to look at manifold vacuum while idling. Gives it a nice stable ignition setting for a consistent idle speed.
Not having this switch hooked up means you will have to set the ignition advance with the vacuum line disconnected (so you have the correct advance at WOT), then connect the vacuum line, then reset idle speed down since the ignition will advance quite a bit with the line connected.
I'd recommend using the switch.
<snip>
[HR][/HR]

Well, Once again I remove my foot to insert a bite of Crow.
The two switches on the A2 throttle body are in place, they are both running through the three conductor plug and both wires run to the K/S module. One is the Blue w/ White, the other is Purple (Violet). The third wire is Yellow w/ Blue and carries 12v from term15.
Thx for the info, I was only thinking it wasn't used because I wasn't using the A2 O2 computer. That's what I get for thinking. Turns out I was confusing the WOT (which in this case has TWO switches - One for Closed & One for Open) with the Idle Speed Actuator, which I am not using (it ties into the A2 Or computer). I'll update the pic again to put the Throttle Closed Switch back in.
TBerk

[Modified by TBerk, 4:11 PM 7-20-2002]

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TBerk

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jul 23, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

WooHoo! She runs! I was able to wiggl some wires around the coil and here the 'buzz' in the fuel Dist come On & Off so that helped track down a loose connector; 12v feed to the coil was both loose and plugged into the recently unused and 'corrodested' one.
Tommorrow I reconnect the downpipe and axles (was waiting inc case the motor had to come out again).

Weeeeee!
TBerk

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8

TBerk

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (DriversFound.com)

I think it's because of the load reduction relay; Maybe it provides power during cranking when most everything is off. Conversly it signals extra rich for start up or something. I'm not sure.
Check here:
http://home.mindspring.com/~tberk/index.html
Not the original schematic and where #10 is connected.
The GTI's #10 went to the fuel pump relay. Make that Comes From the FP Relay. Looks like it's a 31 grounding the 15 supplied to the FP Relay to clamp it ON.
Hmmm, perhaps I will leave it off and see what happens.
TBerk

[Modified by TBerk, 11:39 PM 7-23-2002]

[Modified by TBerk, 11:44 PM 7-23-2002]

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marker

· #17 · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

Ok, now I apologize for the lack of clarity, since my memory is not what it used to be. I did this at least 5-6 years ago.
The pin 11 is used to ground somewhere in the fuel circuit, and induces a lower rev limiter (fuel related, i THINK), and has a less agressive ignition map. When you clip the pin, it raises the rev limiter 500RPM or so, and puts more timing in faster. It has to do with somebody at Audi wanting a less agressive map for the 4000s.
That is all that I can remeber for now.

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TBerk

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (marker)

Yeah, we resolved the pin 11 thing, turns out the VW GTI loom from 86 on doesnt even provide a pin on 11.
Qustion of the day is why does David's Volkswagen.Org schematic have pin TEN going to power terminal 50?
TBerk

MrDave

· #19 · Jul 26, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)

>>Qustion of the day is why does David's Volkswagen.Org schematic have pin TEN going to power terminal 50?

On the wiring schematics for the 85-89 GLI, pin 10 from the KS goes to circuit #50.
Gotta love having a couple different Bentley's lying around.

After 6 months of procrastinating, I'm hoping to toss the KS ignition into my Jetta this weekend. I blame this thread.
-Dave

TBerk

Discussion Starter · #20 · Jul 27, 2002

Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (MrDave)

Well, I was able to time the motor/ distributor (1st use of timing light) and frequency valve (via a dwell meter) (47-52% appox).
Idles is still a might high but I'm replacing edited vacuum hoses with proper caps instead f the plugs I had and will tune it further over the next few days.
The wire TEN to power #50 turns out to Not burn anything up so I'm going to finalize it.
I have some pix upcoming as I remove the tape I used as identification tags and wrap the wires with 2" rubber pipe wrap from Home Depot.
I also have some extra large shrink tube I hope to use as a substitute for the vinyl tubing used to route the OEM loom in the 1st place. Not trying to make use of the super fat tube as is normally meant for s.t. but to emulate a nice clean stock look.
I also have some braided sleeve stuff for anti abrasive reasons were one thing must rub on another.
Thx for playing along at home people.
TBerk
Moving from the Theoretical to the Physical & Practical

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